Author Topic: gestalt Master of shrouds (Read 3296 times)

rubberduck · « **on:** January 12, 2009, 03:53:26 AM »

~~bla bla which has already changed~~
we are starting a new game soon and i get to play a master of shrouds
starting level is 6
there is no fractional whatever...

so up to now im a binder19 / marsahll1 // cleric3 / master of shrouds10 / contemplative3 / divine oracle4 /
as can be seen here:
http://rubberduck.myftp.org/gestalt.htm

bab 18 fort16 ref10 will20
i get cleric casting 19 and binder 19
(basically because i wanted to get into master of shrouds as early as possible.)
abilities :

at 6th level i can bind myself to a level 4 vestige thanks to improved binding
(that should be teneborus or buer most of the time)
buer of course for healing
and thanks to teneborus i can rebuke a lot better
turning check:


   +2 knowledge religion 5 ranks
   +6 cleric and mos
   +5 teneborus turning states it stacks with similar abilities
so 
turning level is 13

more than enough to control shadows even with bad rolls
and the marshall gives me my charisma a second time on the turning check as well as all proficencies (which i gave up as a cloistred cleric

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:44:08 PM »

If your DM will actually let you control a bunch of shadows (and their spawn) via Rebuke/Command, Master of Shrouds is basically unnecessary.

rubberduck · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:49:09 PM »

thouh he will let me control them...
he won't just give me some...

its highly unlikely that i will ever encounter shadows, spectres, or wraiths (or their better forms)
and the first spell able to call shadows is summon monster V

master of the shrouds gives me shadows A LOT faster then they would normally become available
(actually at levels where they are usefull)
and of course later dread wraiths.

rubberduck · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2009, 03:39:16 AM »

maybe it would be better to go knight of the sacred seal on the binder side and drop malconvoker
so i would become a outsider with native subtype so i can still be raises an so on...

that would open a can of polymorph abuse
or shall i just take some of the standard cleric prcs like divine oracle or contemplative?

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:00:22 PM »

I would certainly avoid losing more caster levels on the cleric side. In fact, you might stick the MoS 1st level on the other side, to avoid losing any. And now that I think about it, can you even use early entry with gestalt? Don't you always use fractional saves with that?

rubberduck · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:48:06 AM »

hmm i guess i could take two cleric levels on the binder side to avoid casterlevel loss but then i will lose two binderlevels and therefore the ability to bind teneborus and buer which are pretty good for level 4
uhm maybe just one level cleric... then i would be one behind in binder and one in cleric

as far as fractional saves and bab are concerned...
we do not use that things there is no fractional whatever...
(that's the reason i end up with 19 bab)

sooo i take malconvoker out and replace it with something that has full casting

rubberduck · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2009, 04:25:36 AM »

ok its done!

now im a binder19 / marsahll1 // cleric3 / master of shrouds10 / contemplative3 / divine oracle4 /
so im 1 binderlevel behind which will not hurt too much since i took improved binding
and 1 casterlevel behind which should not be that terrible^^

so still looking for some feats 2 binder bonus feats and 2 normal feats

rubberduck · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2009, 08:03:12 PM »

by the way how do miss-chances stack?

if i take some shadows and put them in my deeper darkness

what hapens?
darkness spells gives 20% misschance
shadows have 50%

so whats is their chanceto aviod beeing hit?

0,2*0,5=0,1?
or
0,2+0,5=0,7?

that could be a 90% misschance
or a 70% misschance

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:14:50 AM »

0.8*0.5= 0.4 or 40% to be hit. Or you could just roll them separately and get the same result.

rubberduck · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »

sooo after one gaming session i decided not to play it anymore after i killed a cr 13 dragon alone at level 6 withing 2 rounds...

it works perfectly fine
its just broken and no fun to the rest of the players...
make that an BBEG or something but dont play it

Surreal · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:06:35 PM »

Looking at your build, I don't think you properly understand how to stack up bab/saves in gestalt (and you should be using fractionals anyways). There's no way your bab and saves should be that high, and you should not have been able to qualify early for Master of Shrouds.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:05:18 PM »

Quote from: Surreal on February 15, 2009, 05:06:35 PM

Looking at your build, I don't think you properly understand how to stack up bab/saves in gestalt (and you should be using fractionals anyways). There's no way your bab and saves should be that high, and you should not have been able to qualify early for Master of Shrouds.

He said earlier they're not using fractional saves or BAB.

Quote from: rubberduck on February 15, 2009, 04:30:53 PM

sooo after one gaming session i decided not to play it anymore after i killed a cr 13 dragon alone at level 6 withing 2 rounds...

it works perfectly fine
its just broken and no fun to the rest of the players...
make that an BBEG or something but dont play it

Glad you liked it.

What did you wind up doing with the binder side of things? I'm just starting to play a couple of characters with binder levels myself (one is also gestalt, starting at level 1).

Negative Zero · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:58:46 PM »

No, Surreal is right. The way to get early entry into Master of Shrouds is to take two levels in a class with a good will save, dip another class with a good will save, and then take Master of Shrouds. In the example, he would not qualify for Master of Shrouds at level 3 unless he went Binder 2/Marshall 1//Cleric 3 and then took MoS. Gestalt doesn't add the saves of both sides, it just takes the highest at each given level.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:10:05 PM »

Quote from: Negative Zero on February 15, 2009, 06:58:46 PM

No, Surreal is right. The way to get early entry into Master of Shrouds is to take two levels in a class with a good will save, dip another class with a good will save, and then take Master of Shrouds. In the example, he would not qualify for Master of Shrouds at level 3 unless he went Binder 2/Marshall 1//Cleric 3 and then took MoS. Gestalt doesn't add the saves of both sides, it just takes the highest at each given level.

You're right. I didn't even look. Ah well, give him the benefit of a doubt and guess he did take Marshall early?

I don't think it's going to matter, anyway, hehe.

Brainpiercing · « **Reply #14 on:** February 16, 2009, 04:53:49 AM »

Quote from: rubberduck on February 15, 2009, 04:30:53 PM

sooo after one gaming session i decided not to play it anymore after i killed a cr 13 dragon alone at level 6 withing 2 rounds...

it works perfectly fine
its just broken and no fun to the rest of the players...
make that an BBEG or something but dont play it

While that is pretty harsh, IMHO it should be possible in Gestalt. Also, Shadows are a specific class of critters that are either quite easy or almost impossible to beat

. They easily muck with CR, AND they are very powerful against other monsters. I suspect the DM didn't play the dragon smartly, though, either, OR you got the drop on him before he knew you were coming. What I'm imagining is the Dragon standing and fighting vs. four or more shadows (with his non-magical claws, even?) instead of taking off and hitting the controller.
Incidentally, this is a distinct problem with early entry MoS, I think. Gestalt or not, Dragons suck vs. critters that attack their piddly touch AC, and then do ability damage. (Allips would have been worse.) The classic dragon's lair is a death trap vs incorporeals. For a dragon to fight effectively he needs to be able to maneuver. Once in the air, your shadows would never have been able to hit him at all, and he could have strafed you with flyby-breathweapons.

rubberduck · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2009, 08:33:32 AM »

Quote

What did you wind up doing with the binder side of things? I'm just starting to play a couple of characters with binder levels myself (one is also gestalt, starting at level 1).

at that particular level i can really remember but most of the time i had otiax and arete bound

after the dragon killing i decided to keep the binder and make it binder20//marshall1/dragonfire adept19
this worked a lot better(meaning: not totally ridiciously broken)

i was binding otiax and bruer for defensive/offensive and healing
it turned into a very defensive build.
by level 8 i was running around with AC 35(10+10(fullplate+2)+4(heavy shield+2)+1(dex)+2(NA scales)+2(fighting defensivley)+5(combat expertise)+1(ioun stone)) an still was able to deliever 4d6 damage each round (since my breath attack requires no attack roll i could afford to take -9 to hit^^(-4 fighting defensivley -5 combat expertise)

but if everything goes smoothly on the next session we will have two newcommers joining the group
meaning that this particular group will be paused...
and we will be starting at level 1 again and since there will be 5 players available now we're not going gestalt
(i will miss it^^)
and my current problem is:
i dont know what to play...
or to be more precise i have loads of stuff i'd like to play but can't decide(and don't want to scare off the new guys)

ideas:
dragonfire adept(again plain simple put on all armor you can get and blast!)
wizard/malkonvoker(this might turn out to be a second master of shrouds

)
jaunter/teflammer shadowlord with shadow manuevers(i love the pounce stuff and multiple fullattacks each round)
mindcontroller psionic or arcane(still lacking a build)
chameleon(simply a good class^^)
artificer(no! i'm not going to abuse wands with twinned maximized repeated sorching rays^^)
wizard/phantom knight(like the class though its not really THAT good)

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2009, 02:30:02 PM »

If you don't attack or at least declare an attack action, you can't use Combat Expertise or Fight Defensively. Since it also requires a standard action to use your breath weapon, what you did is not legal.

BowenSilverclaw · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2009, 02:32:38 PM »

Could you give a page or link for that Combat Expertise part, Phaedrus?
There's a guy in my party who keeps abusing it with his Wizard, and I've always suspected it didn't work if you didn't actually attack (as in, an attack roll), but I've never been able to find it...

Surreal · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2009, 03:43:37 PM »

from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise
bolded emphasis is mine

[spoiler]
Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite

Int 13.
Benefit

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal

A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special

A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats. [/spoiler]

rubberduck · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2009, 05:38:42 PM »

oh darn!
i did not know that...

whoopsie!

News:

Author Topic: gestalt Master of shrouds (Read 3296 times)