(3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal

[fil kearney]

I've started a some what not? original point based ToB system here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2397.msg73982#new

many have been fighting with developing a unified spell/maneuver system.  The above I think (after tinkering) may work effectively for maneuvers... but how to adapt spell casting?

CL	SP	SL	SC	PR
01	03	1	01	01
02	04	1		02
03	05	2	03	03
04	06	2		04
05	07	3	05	05
06	08	3		06
07	10	4	07	07
08	12	4		08
09	14	5	09	09
10	16	5		10
11	18	6	11	11
12	20	6		12
13	23	7	13	13
14	26	7		14
15	29	8	15	15
16	33	8		16
17	37	9	17	17
18	41	9		18
19	45	9		19
20	49	9		20

CL = Class Level
SP = Spell Points
SL = Maximum Spell Level
SC = Spell Point Cost / ML
PR = Spell Points Recovered



1. spontaneous and prepared casters will effectively be folded into the same system, AND benefit from the best part of both... arcane spell books used and arcane fusion spell stuff, for example.
2. "spells known" will simply be a battery of prepared spells that can be used repeatedly.
3a. all instant effects (the majority of combat type spells and one shot uses) work just like proposed in the other thread... use the spell, deduct the spell points from available pool. 
3b. all duration effects will use the same number of points as their level will demand, but will "lock" those spell points from use until choosing to end the spell... this means if they are non instant spells, they can be "persisted" for as long as the caster is willing to sacrefice the spell points to maintain it.
3c. (less certain here) if it is a permanent effect, then it will cost xp.  permanent ilusion and fabricate are good examples.  use em, and they are effectively instant spells, but you have to pay xp to use em.

psionics are readily converted, assuming a decent matrix can be de3termined for known powers and size of pp pool per level. 
spell casters both divine and arcane could easily convert to the psionic template once balanced.
metamagic will effectively be scaled like psionics, and perhaps adding the psionic focus mechanic balances spammed meta effects?


The end result is an effective magic point system with rechargable, ongoing "per encounter" feeling like the martial adepts have, while not being out of balance by long duration spells... fly is effectively permanent for however long you are willing to tie up your points. divine power is the same... have it all day if you want, as long as you are willing to scratch off the 7 points required to maintain it. 
((For example: a 7th level caster has 10 points... he can lock 7 of those points and have divine power all day... not bad for a melee focused cleric, but not so much for a party buffer who would only have 3 points left for refreshing.)
This makes DMM persist obsolete.
This makes persistant spell meta obsolete.

The problem with timestop:
It's broken.  we all know it.  whatever. 
The ongoing argument with the per round spell points mechanic is that you can cast timestop, refresh your spell pool, and drop back into normal time replenished...
In this system, while timestop is active, you CANNOT RECOVER the 17 points. 
plus, any buffs you stack on is also locking the SP's used to buff... so you may get four rounds of loading up your spells for free, but you will end the timestop and still not have the 17 points from timestop, have all the buff points locked, and still have to spend either an action or full round recovering the 17 spell points from timestop.
Same for other "time bending" effects... points cannot be recoverd from spells using the points until the spell ends. 

explosive runes:
another issue.. why not just make assloads of erunes all day?
either the runes will need to have a small xp cost to produce, or will lock the spell points until discharged.  the former seems more sensible considering the nature of the spell as a long term trap... honestly, instead of a spell, this could have been priced as a fireball potion rigged to blow as trap.  makes more sense imo.

There may be other problematic spells I haven't considered....?




It's now a matter of deciding how many spells should be in memory at a time, and how many spell points in the pool per level. 
The trick is to keep the pool small enough to seriously hamper the caster after a handful of spells get persisted, and allow enough spells to be "known" at a time to maintain diversity in casting.
sorceror types could have a larger pool and/or greater recovery, but less readied spells from their book.
wizard types could have more prepared spells, but smaller pools, or weaker recovery.
Divine casters should follow the same rules, but don't need a book... they simply have to pray to have their spells readied.

the same normal night of rest to change readied spells for use the next day.


Feedback appreciated...

[bkdubs123]

This could become awesomesauce. That's all for now. My head's not in the right place, but I read through it, and at a cursory glance it all seems wonderful. Of course... it can be broken. Sure, I can't point my fingers at anything, but I'm too tired to care right now. Suffice it to say, I'm sure it needs tweaking, but with the proper tweaking I think this can be a big hit.

[bkdubs123]

Blah... I tried to reply but got kicked. I don't know what happened. Suffice it to say that I think the concept is awesome, but I'm sure it has some way to be totally broken. Still, I think that even if that happens it won't be too hard to fix. And I have to say, the concept and the end result are just too completely awesome. Job well done!

EDIT: PFFFFT. Wtf. Pwned. 1 M /[/00[3.

[veekie]

Dealing with timestop, I see one solution, in that you don't allow 'in combat' recharge, a 5 minute rest requirement for recharge rather than the martial classes more in-combat recharge takes care of that handily. Any Permanent spell effects will require the points to remain invested, unless xp is paid to free up those points.

I reiterate what I said in the other thread about making the point costs more intuitive though, either have simple multiples increments of say, 2 or 3 per spell level(instead of the current 1+((spell level-1)x2), have spell levelx2), or just take a 1 point per spell level approach.

At the same time, cantrips, 0 points to use, at will, right? How about discounting lower level spells into freebies at higher levels, though they'd be effectively at will at that point anyway, due to your pool size.

[fil kearney]

thanks for props and fu.

although 1 point per level is more intuitive, I am attempting to frame this as closely to psionics simply because psionics already work well.  it is only a matter of converting per day points to per encounter points.


I also hesitate creating line veto exceptions to specific spells; look at the spell recharge UA variant nightmare.. some are standard recharge, others have specific durations... I think the timestop solution is elegant enough as is (ouch... I broke my arm!) timetop's usefulness is only really in the ability to spam buffs in 0 time... but this system strongly limits the buffer as is... and another 17 points locked up during timestop, and then requiring a refresh in normal time fits very nicely into this proposal.

I agree with "leave the points gone until xp is paid"... if you can't afford the xp, you have just permanently lowered your spell pool until you can, delaying level advancement as a further layer of enforcement. 

I'm looking for initial flaws, and then some help with balancing pool size per level.

[SiggyDevil]

Why 2 threads on the same thing?
You could have posted this concept as a reply to the first.

[fil kearney]

Because if this doesn't work as a magic system, it still may be viable for maneuvers... Since they are technically separate subjects, I didn't want the other to get derailed by this one. 

You know how easily threads can get derailed even when only one issue is being addressed, eh?

if a 1 per level point system is viable, I'm looking for input... but for uniformity, I would like to see it work for psionics as well.

[fil kearney]

As stated previously, this is a close reflection of the ToB point system I've been playing with.  Here is the relavent link regarding  how point pool progresses there, but let' see how it works regarding spells...


Most fights in DnD seem to resolve within 4-6 rounds.  at least, I understand that to be the "sweet spot" of combat with 4 encounters per day.

First, how does the psion look?
1st level: 1st level spells, 2 pts/day
2nd:1st level, 6/day (enough for 1 or two per encounter)
3rd: 2nd level spells, 11pts/day: not quite 3/fight.. 1-3 spells per encounter?
5th: 3rd lvl spells, 25pts/day: 6pts/enc... 3rdx1, or 2ndx2... spam 6
7th: 4th lvl 46pts, 11/enc. 4thx1 & 2ndx1
8th: 4th lvl: 58pt: 14ish/enc. 4thx2
14th: 7th lvl: 170pts, 42pts/enc= 7thx3 & 2ndx1
20th: 9th = 343/day, 85/enc = 9thx5 exactly.

These don't refresh, and obviously, you can throw an assload of 9th level spells at level 20 if you don't mind sucking a lot in later fights.
you can also effectively spam low level spells for minutes at a time.


how about wizard standard spells?
1st: 1 first/day. 
2nd: 2/day
3rd: 1stx2, 1 2nd
5th: (finally 1 spell/enc.!) 3,2,1...
7th: 4,3,2,1-- 2/enc.
8th: 4,3,3,2- 3/enc
14th: 4,4,4,4,3,3,2: 24/day: 6/enc.
20th: 4/spell level: total of 36, 9/enc.



So how about spell pool?
This progression was built with the philosophy that starting at second level, you can use 4 spells before needing to refresh.

CL SP SL SC PR
01 03 1  01 01
02 04 1     02
03 06 2  03 03
04 09 2     04
05 12 3  05 05
06 16 3     06
07 20 4  07 07
08 24 4     08
09 28 5  09 09
10 32 5     10
11 36 6  11 11
12 40 6     12
13 44 7  13 13
14 48 7     14
15 52 8  15 15
16 56 8     16
17 60 9  17 17
18 64 9     18
19 68 9     19
20 72 9     20

Assuming psionic progression, 1st level spells need 1 point to execute.
2nd level has 4 points... 4 spells before  needing to refresh.
3rd level has 6 points..  1 second (3pt), 3 first level before refreshing.
5th level has 12... 1 third (5pt) 2 second(3ptx2) 1 1st(1)
This pattern then repeats... 1 of your top level, 2 of the next level down, and one of the third highest..
7th has 20.... 4th(7) 3rdx2(5ea=10) 2nd(3pts)
etc. etc. .. oddly, this means that every level gains exactly 4 more points-- which makes progression incredibly intuitive.

This proposal assumes that the same spell can be used repeatedly. a 3rd level character can only spam the 2nd level spell twice before needing to refresh..  assuming none of the spells are buffs that lock the spell points until ended. I think that is very reasonable.
A level 8 character can spam a 4th level spell 3 times.
a level 14 character can spam a 7th level spell 3 times too.. can spam a 6th level spell 4 times.
A level 20 character can spam a 9th level spell 4 times... 8th 4 times, 7th 5 times... assuming NO buffs are locking spell points from use.
So let's say you've got shapechange(9th=17), and true seeing(6th=11) active. 
That is 28 points right off the top unavailable... leaving 32 open for use.. one 9th level, one 8th level befor needing to refresh. or spam 6 rounds of wraithstrike....

Thing here is a lot of spell power comes from buff and ongoing effects... those now lock down spell points... you can tank up, but have little left to play with. 


Low level is far more flexible than the differencd at high leels... but this actually lets the low level casters participate with te team.  Mid level may be unbalanced, but I am assuming that a lot of points may be blown on buffing.. so that pool becomes much less, potentilly forcing a refresh every 2 or 3 rounds.

should there be less points available in the pool? 
What have I missed worth considering?

[veekie]

although 1 point per level is more intuitive, I am attempting to frame this as closely to psionics simply because psionics already work well.  it is only a matter of converting per day points to per encounter points.

As for point costing, if I read this right, it's intent in psionics is to mirror the wizard's spell gain rate, because a wizard gets 9th level spells at 17th level and you can spend one more pp every manifester level.

Couple of ways you can deal with it, one by using a straight point cost = spell levels, and increasing the amount you can spend when you get a new spell level(tricky part, how much can you spend at a particular level), or adopting 2 points per spell level, with the ability to spend one more point every level(tricky part, total pool capacity).

Or you could take one of the above costings, and provide a spell point discount instead of a spell pool size increase when you level up. So you'd have a fixed pool size, but your spells become more efficient. It changes the dynamics of play somewhat however, since you'd start getting your lower level spells at will when their costs hit 0. Might not be what you're looking for, but hey, properly balanced low level spells shouldn't be that significant in a level appropriate fight right? Theoretically at least.

I also hesitate creating line veto exceptions to specific spells; look at the spell recharge UA variant nightmare.. some are standard recharge, others have specific durations... I think the timestop solution is elegant enough as is (ouch... I broke my arm!) timetop's usefulness is only really in the ability to spam buffs in 0 time... but this system strongly limits the buffer as is... and another 17 points locked up during timestop, and then requiring a refresh in normal time fits very nicely into this proposal.

Well, for the recharge thing, I meant it as a universal spell point recharge rate. Because wizards typically do not reprep their spells in anything like combat time. Helps distinguish Martial Adepts from spell slingers in a sense. Spell slingers need to conserve their fuel within the context of a battle, while Martial Adepts basically just count the round they need to reload off(possibly more dangerous, since they're engaged in melee, losing a round off the beatdown could hurt quite a bit).

[bkdubs123]

I'd like to see an example character if you think you could put up one, at least a theoretical one, to see what a Wizard using this system could do, specifically. The numbers and the concepts really seem to make sense for me, but something about my synapses not firing right... I don't know, I'm not seeing the big picture yet.

So... can you put together a 5th level Wizard and maybe a 15th level Wizard to show what they could do? Using some interesting, maybe provocative, spell effects, of course.

[fil kearney]

since at this stage we haven't differentiated between various arcane classes that are possible, I'll keep it generic using the wizard as a base template.
 
Rule clarification:
1. 0 level spells: you get em all, they don't cost points to use.
2. ANYTHING with a duration locks spell points.  buffs, and DEbuffs.

I will assume:
1. high stats don''t increase the spell pool: only the number of spells prepared at once.
2. each presented level will match the PHB on how many spells can be prepared
3. no prc's yet.... we;'re just playing with base mechanics... let's just make th thing work.
4.I"ll be working mostly from PHB regarding spell use.  maybe some splats. 
5. Although fights may be typically 4-6 rounds, I'm stretching it out to around 9 just to see how the mechanics work.

Level 5
[spoiler]wizard 5 is human, has a 16 int due to level gain
feats: spell focus ,imp. init, scibe scroll, adaptive style, sculpt spell

spells prepared:
1st level:              
grease          
magic missle    
shield           
true strike

2nd level:  
scorching ray    
summon swarm
invisible 

3rd level:
stinking cloud
fly

spell pool: 12
recover = 5pts. (adaptive style recovers all)
Buffs:
shield (1)
fly (5)
available pool: 6

Shield on permabuff is a no brainer.  Fly is expensive, but worth it if out doors.
in a combat:
1st round: grease cast (locking 1 point until choosing to end)
2nd round: stinking cloud cast synergizing with grease (5 points locked)
wiz5 has now locked all his points... shield, fly, grease, and stinking cloud will persist until wiz5 chooses to release any/all of them (as free actions)
the rest of the party is now working on beatdown.... at end of round 2 wiz5 releases fly to free up 5 ponts. 
3rd round: recovering 5 points by expending a swift and standard action.  moves to a better position
4th round: wiz5 casts anoter grease spell to furher control the field (locks another point, 4 open)
5th round: magic missle (3 pts left)
6th round: scorching ray (0 pont left)
7th round: recover 4 points (8 points are locked from shield, greasex2, stinking cloud)
8th round: the fight is now over, so wiz5 releases the 2 greases and stinking cloud as a free action, and spends a full round to use adaptive style, recovering the remaining 8 points.
9th round: casts fly again,m locking 5 points,(6 available)[/spoiler]

Level 10
[spoiler]
wizard10 has 17 int from stat  gain.
feats: spell focus, imp. init, scibe scroll, adaptive style, sculpt spell, cloudy conjuration, knowledge dev., split ray

spells prepared:
1st level:      
grease          
magic missle  
shield           
true strike     
mage armor  

2nd level:        
scorching ray      
summon swarm  
see invis            
mirror image      
resist energy

3rd level:         
stinking cloud   
fly                  
clairvoyance     
haste

4th level:     
solid fog      
dim door     
gr. invisible

5th level:
teleport
mindfog

spellpool: 32 points
recover = 10pts. (adaptive style recovers all)
buffs:
shield (1)
mage armor (1)
fly (5)
haste (5)
available pool: 20

the whole group is hasted with this permabuff.  There are a lot more buffs out there that could be taken, but the spell pool will quickly get whittled down to nothing.

1st round: Solid fog with sculpt spell(+1level = +2 points as per psionics): 9 points locked, 11 left.
2nd round: split ray scorching ray (+2level = 4 extra poits as per psionics): 7 points spent, 4 left.
3rd round: cast mirror image for some defense: 3 points locked, 1 left.
4th round: wiz10 has 1 point left, bt the party may need some help: Normally wiz10 can recover 10 points with a standard and swift action, but 24 points are currently locked that he doesn't want to relinquish: shield, magearmor, haste, fly, sculpted solid fog, and mirror image... wiz10 can only recover 8 points... 9 total
5th round: solid fog has lost it's usefulness at this point, so that is being dropped to free up 11 points next recovery, and casts summon swarm in it's place; locking 3 points, leaving 6 open for use.
6th round: casts scorching ray: 3 points, 3 left.
7th round: party is on cleanup now; drop mirror image to free up 3 points, and it's time to recover.... wiz10 could standard recover 10 points, but he's got the time: adaptive style allows for all available ponts to be recovered...  14 points are recoverd, adding to the 3 points still left: 17 points available.
summon swarm, haste, fly, magearmor, and shield are still active for the remaining 15.
8th round: party wins.  summon swarm is dropped and wiz10 recovers the 3 points, putting him at 20 points open, 12 locked..[/spoiler]

Level 15
[spoiler]
wizard15 has 18 int
feats: spell focus, imp. init, scibe scroll, adaptive style, sculpt spell, cloudy conjuration, knowledge dev., split ray, quicken spell,  twin spell, greater spell focus

spells prepared:
1st level:                
grease              
magic missle               
shield              
true strike               
mage armor      

2nd level: 
scorching ray
summon swarm
see invisible
mirror image
resist energy

3rd level: 
stinking cloud
fly
clairvoyance
haste
dispel magic

4th level:
solid fog
dim door
gr invisible
dim anchor
enervation

5th level: 
teleport
tpath bond
prying eyes
baleful polymorph

6th level:     
acid fog         
true seeing    
veil

7th level: 
spell turning
prismatic spray

8th level: 
summon monster VIII

spellpool: 52 points.
recover = 15pts.
Buffs:
mage armor (1)
shield (1)
see invisible (3)
fly (5)
haste (5)
summon monster VIII (13)
available pool: 24

obviosly SMVIII is very expensive, but this critter is available ALL DAY, which is incredibly useful, and for this example, will be used in combat.  There are a lot of spells that can be used to buff.  If not expecting danger, other spells on the list can be added on to make exploring easier, but I'm assuming wiz15 is expecting trouble, so he has to be a bit more careful about how many points he wants to commit.


1st round: SMVIII is a pair of invisible stalkers which wiz15 can keep an eye on, and are unleashed upon the hapless encounter.  wiz15 casts split twinned scorching ray (effectively a 8th level spell): 15... leaving 9 left.
2nd round: casts enervation: 7, leaving 2 points left.
3rd round: the party and stalkers are doing some beatdown.. time to recover: a standard recover would yield 15 points, but there are a lot of combatants on the board.  wiz15 waits until after the team and enemies finish, suspecting the stalkers are gonna take a womping... and he then releases them-- freeing up 15 points. Wiz15 takes a full round action to recover 37 points, adding to the 2 remaining. 39 total open, 15 locked.
4th round: quicken enervation: 15 points (24 left) then split ray enervation (11 points) 13 left.
5th round: quicken true strike (9 points, leaving 6 available) followed by scorching ray (3 points, leaving 3 left)
6th round: takes a full round to recover with adaptive style: 39 points in the pool again available to use.
7th round: split ray quickened scorching ray (15 points, 24 left) followed by split twinned scorching ray (15 points, 9 left)
This finishes off the encounter with the rest of the team resolving their targets.
8th round: adaptive style restores the 39 points, and SummonVIII brings up 4 air elementals (15 points) and telepathic bond (9 points) keeps them connected or some excellent recon... 15 points are still open for any defensive casting needed, and of course, the haste, fly, mage armor and shield are still active.[/spoiler]

Level 20
[spoiler]
wizard20 has 20 int.
feats: spell focus, imp. init, scibe scroll, adaptive style, sculpt spell, cloudy conjuration, knowledge dev., split ray, quicken spell,  twin spell, greater spell focus, rapicd summoning, enlarge spell

spells prepared:
1st level:      
grease            
magic missle    
shield           
true strike     
mage armor   

2nd level:
scorching ray
summon swarm
see invisible
mirror image
resist energy

3rd level:
stinking cloud
fly
clairvoyance
haste
dispel magic

4th level:
solid fog
dimension door
greater invisible
dimensional anchor
enervation

5th level:
teleport
telepathic bond
summon monster V
baleful polymorph
telekinesis

6th level:       
acid fog         
eyebite          
veil               
gr dispel        

7th level:
spell turning
prismatic spray
mass invisile
phase door

8th level:  
summon monster VIII
greater prying eyes
incediary cloud
maze

9th level:
crushing hand
dominate monster
energy drain
timestop

spellpool: 72 points
recovery = 20 points
Buffs:
mage armor (1)
shield (1)
fly (5)
haste (5)
enlarge summon VIII (17)
gr prying eyes (15)
veil (11)
spellpool available: 17

kinda buff heavy, eh?
qiz20 is at the top of his game, even if only using core spells.  there are a lot of options, but this arryay has a squad of pryinng eyes hunting around with true seeing, and a quad of earth eles from summon VI patrolling around the party permanently.  Veil tries to make the team as inconspicuous as possible at the same time.
only 17 points?  if the party is aware of an upcoming problem, then he can drop the summons or eyes and recover the points to prepare for whooping ass.  But i the party gets surprised...
1st round: sends eleentals off to beatdown oponent.. once completed, casts timestop (17 points... total is cashed)
even with only two free round:
timestop 1: releases elelementals, gr prying eyes, and veil, adaptive style recovers 43 points... the 17 cast with timestop aren't available until the timestop effect ends for you.
timestop 2: cast gr invisible (7): 36 points still available when timestop ends.
2nd round: hopefully wiz20 isn't noticed after some clever move actions during timestop.. looks like he just flat out left, and the rest of the party is mobilizing. Cast quickened enevation (15) then cast timestop again (17)
timestop 1: full recover gives 36 points back.. the current timestop is holding 17, but the first timestop 17 points can recover.
timestop 2: maneuver to a new position.
3rd round: quickened summoning V (17) then cast timestop again... character can effectively cast a quickened spell of 5th level or less every round at will.
4th round: spamming summon monsters will use up all the points in your pool quickly, so not the best strategy. 
wiz20 has refreshed is 36 points after dismissing the summonV during the last timestop.
Cast quickened enervation (15) then cast energy drain (17) 4 points are left.
5th round: standard recovery puts 24 points back in the pool, and allows a move action to relocate.
6th round: quickened stinking cloud (13) then sculpted solid fog (11)
7th round: standard recover 12 points
8th level:etc. as you wish.
[/spoiler]

even with timestop tricks, the wizard is stuck using blasting or sod's, or else the spell pool gets depleted with buffs or sustained spells.  Blasting and SoD's take time to finish the fight.

Overall, this allows for a lot of high level casting, but you have to skip a round ever 2 or three rounds no matter what level.  This I think creates a lot of party balance.. god can't do everything all the time.  he has to tkake breaks, and coordinatin with the team becomes much more important. 

I didn't hitthe wizard with greater dispel, forcing to rebuff, I didn't go into tactics wher ethe wizard was being cornered, forcing some fancy footwork and defensive maneuvers.  This was very static, but shows that if youwant to use your top stuff, you have to pace things and be careful not to be completely drained of points in the wrong time. 

feedback?

[bkdubs123]

Okay, so the mechanic is very fluid and totally fun to play it seems. Huge +. The negatives are that the Wizard, which is already powerful, now gets to spam powerful high level spells multiple times an encounter. Even with more blasty stuff this seems to be a problem. The good news is that buffs now really tie up spell power (instead of only pretending to). The bad news is that you can spam Time Stop every turn. And you weren't even playing around with the real optimization stuff, nor did you even have an average Intelligence score. So, my initial verdict is that the system needs more restrictions and needs to be toned down slightly. You were casting at least one spell every round, often multiples, often empowered with metamagic. This is a little scary. Force the Wizard to cast really low level stuff if he's going to be casting every single round. But even his mid-range spells should cause him to run low very fast.

The recovery mechanic seems to be too easy, which is why he can cast so many spells so often. Even with multiple buffs it seemed like the drain in spell points was usually negligible, and I don't even want to think about how much a Wizard could do without having multiple buffs up. Make the recovery much harder to pull off. Swift action recovery should recover hardly anything, Standard should be marginally better, and full round should only recover about half (I'd say), but certainly not all expended points.

[veekie]

Easy fix for the above, put a 5 minute recovery for spellcasters instead of Standard or Full action recovery, due to spell power, being able to reload in combat with a point pool that size is unreasonable.

[bkdubs123]

Easy fix for the above, put a 5 minute recovery for spellcasters instead of Standard or Full action recovery, due to spell power, being able to reload in combat with a point pool that size is unreasonable.

This is not only simpler than what I said, but really just as good or better. You still get to leave lots of buffs up, but now those points being tied up actually matters a lot more, and you can still cast Time Stop a couple times each encounter, but never more than that. I like the suggestion, and I approve this message. 

[SiggyDevil]

feedback?

I... think you've assumed some odd things for the Wizard's behavior. Also, take in to account the chance for prebuff time, which obviously favors any spellcaster over a ToB warrior, and the fact that others will probably think tactics that you have not.

IMO one can only expect encounters in abstraction given values at hand. To guess is one thing, but to hunker down to CharOp.. uh, I mean Min/Maxing over yonder subforum and see things in action is another.

So, I really expect the Wizard to mop the floor with your points-using warrior from about mid levels onward because not much has changed in actual output, only in frequency.
Mid to low levels give the warrior a chance, but that's mostly why E6 is so popular (I've been there myself for years in 3.0, even though there wasn't a name for it. We called it "starting over")

[fil kearney]

Maybe I didn't make this clear: if the spell duration is longer than one round, you don't get your points back until you choose to end the spell or it is dispelled.

1. yes, you can load up a bunch of buffs and shapechange to become an ultra tank and hve zero points left to do any further casting: great for gish.
2. you can  forego any buffing at all, and leave your entir pool "fluid" to do a ton of blasting/SoD.
3. you can buff the party, slowly whittling down your flexibility in exchange for ... er, buffing.
4. you can control the battlefield by laying down multiple spells controlling the field, whittlig down your pool, but then end one effect immediately to open up new points and change the shape of the battlefield in a diferent way.
5. you can focus on debuffing: stacking on more and more debilitating effects while whitling down your own spellpool, depending on your team to deal with the problems once youve completely disabled them.
5. you can play a monster rancher...  have 4 or 5 summons with you constatnly along iwth a permanized crushing fist or whatever at the cost of locking all your points.  want something new? dismiss the summons, and swap it ot after recoverin the points.(typically a 2 round process)
what would you have buffed diferently than I did at each level? what is the poit cost for each to lock down the buff,and how many points does that leave you left with to actually be proactive in the encounter.

take in to account the chance for prebuff time, which obviously favors any spellcaster over a ToB warrior,

THIS is the kind of feedback I was hoping for!
Tell me sig-- what spells would you have selected to prebuff with for yourself and the party at each level, 5,10,15,20?
I"ll do most of the work if you won't...
1. what spells would youu have prepaed if your spellbook was infinite?
2. list for each level what spells you would want buffing
3. what is the point cost to have those buffs active?
4. how many points are you left with to cast new spells?

and the fact that others will probably think tactics that you have not.

I was really hoping some people who know the game better than I do would come by and do just that-- show me how it would really be done, and how that would be handled with this proposed system! 
If you just want to tell me what your wizard would have prepared each day, and how he would handle a hypothetical battle, please lend me a hand, but if you want to do the math of each round, you can copy my format above. 
each level tier would be nice too, if you care to be incredibly helpful.


but to counter your arguement on odd tactics, I was mostly just showcasing the mechancis, recovery, dismising spells. 

Yes, a 5th level character can spam glitterdust 12 times and then let the rest of the party clean up the blinded foes... or maybe lob a fireball then start glitterdusting.  but each opponent locks a spell point to maintain the blindness, and honestly, if that is the only thing your character is gonna do all day, so are all of the NPC casters... Or a 1st level "dispell glitterdust" is added to the local guild's spellbook, or you start having blindproof encounters like undead zombe claws and flesh  golems and oozes etc.  The DM would have to adapt to such cheeze.as most seasoned DM's condone.

Yes, the 20th level characer could spam meteor swarm 4 times before needing to begin recovery.. could this end the fight in 4 rounds? meh.


Obviously I think this is a plausible system, and instead of the caster just being GOD with a ton of buffs, sizzling SoD's as he will, I think this requires a differet type of strategy.  of balancing buffs vs open points to use in the moment. 

so anyone and everyone, help me see what I have missed.  how would you be a wzard at these differnet levels?  did I miss something specific, or is this actually viable?

[bkdubs123]

Maybe I didn't make this clear: if the spell duration is longer than one round, you don't get your points back until you choose to end the spell or it is dispelled.

No, you made it perfectly clear, but your demonstration, as awesome and thorough as it was, clearly elucidated the fact that the system just can't be used without being tweaked. In standard vancian spellcasting when you cast a spell you don't "get your points back" EVER. You cast Grease once and the magic is gone. Right now the system is equivalent to keeping the standard spellcasting system but instead of the spellcaster actually using up any spell slots it can simply dismiss a spell whenever it wants to get the spell slot back. Which is of course complete, and utter, insanity.

Obviously I think this is a plausible system, and instead of the caster just being GOD with a ton of buffs, sizzling SoD's as he will, I think this requires a differet type of strategy.  of balancing buffs vs open points to use in the moment.

Except through your demonstration you showed that the caster WAS GOD with a ton of buffs, all persisted all day, and sizzling SoS/Ds all day, nearly every round of every encounter, or literally blanketing the encounter with crowd control. This is GODMODE currently. On speedritalincrack. However, this is not to say that it can't be fixed. The core idea and mechanic is simple and awesome. All that needs addressed is the recovery and fluidity of it. This caliber of spellcasting should not be as fluid as using maneuvers. Because each spell is much, much, more powerful than any maneuver of the same level.

As veekie and I pointed out, the recovery mechanic is really all that must be addressed. I advocate that certain spells' locked spell points remain locked until 5 minutes of rest. I will even go further and advocate that certain spells' spell points remain locked until 8 hours of rest. The system I suggest to be used is that the lowest third of your spells (rounded down to nothing) can be recovered with the same mechanic as the ToB system; the middle third of your spells (rounded down) can't be recovered except by 5 minutes rest; and the highest third of your spells (rounded up) can't be recovered except with 8 hours of rest.

By this system a 3rd level Wizard can cast 1st and 2nd level spells. He can't recover any spell points in combat, not yet. After casting a 2nd level spell the points used remain locked and unable to be recovered except with 8 hours of rest. After casting a 1st level spell the points remain locked and unable to be recovered except with 5 minutes of rest. This allows the 3rd level Wizard to use 1st level spells with clever judgment every encounter of the day, and to use 2nd level spells when he really needs them. Upon reaching 5th level he can recover his 1st level spell points with a standard action, and can recover 2nd level spell points with 5 minutes' rest. At 17th level he can recover 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell points with a standard action, 4th, 5th, and 6th level spell points with 5 minutes' rest, but has to judiciously use his 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells since they cost so much and lock his points until the next day.

[veekie]

Actually, bkdubs,  instead of 'locking' points used that way(which is excessively elaborate IMO), the simplest solution is to just make it require 5 minutes flat to recover any points, with buffs and whatever long duration debuffs you are sustaining not recovering. The biggest flaw is in having different spells recharge at different rates, which takes away one of the big merits of a point based system, that you don't have to care what spell you casted, just how much it cost you.

Alternatively, make it so that different increments of the pool recover at different rates. When you have only 0-1/4 left, recovery to 1/4 is an action(you shouldn't be able to fuel your top level spells with this little points anyway at least not without spending every other round recharging), 1/4-2/4 takes 5 minutes to bring you back to half full, 2/4-3/4 takes an hour to reach 3/4 and 3/4 takes the full 8 hours rest to recharge to a full tank. Your highest level spell should probably cost around 1/4 of your current reserve this way.

Still elaborate, but without having to track what spells used what points, only what spells Active are currently holding onto points. As you run down, you get low on points, and once you hit the bottom, your highest level spells are essentially locked out, or left with maybe 1 shot per round, with any ongoing buffs speeding that up..

[RobbyPants]

I also hesitate creating line veto exceptions to specific spells; look at the spell recharge UA variant nightmare.. some are standard recharge, others have specific durations...

I like the basics of this idea a lot.  I'm playing a conjurer in a game where we're using recharge magic.  The character is powerful as all fuck.

I've liked the idea of a per-encounter magic system to replace the vancian system, and you might be onto something here.  What I like is that you tie up SP for duration buffs.  That helps with a lot of abuse right there.  The XP for permanent spells could also work pretty nicely.  I agree that the per-spell list in UA is pretty annoying, and it's a crappy fix.

I'll keep an eye on this, and see what I can work up in terms of casters.  This might be the best SP system I've seen yet.

[SiggyDevil]

Tell me sig-- what spells would you have selected to prebuff with for yourself and the party at each level, 5,10,15,20?
I"ll do most of the work if you won't...
1. what spells would youu have prepaed if your spellbook was infinite?
2. list for each level what spells you would want buffing
3. what is the point cost to have those buffs active?
4. how many points are you left with to cast new spells?

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-770482.html