3.5 Multiclassing Everything ToB style.

[fil kearney]

This thread is pulled from here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2274.0

What Am I Doing:?
First off, I'm sure this isn't original... I just haven't seen it elsewhere yet. 
My proposal is to make ALL classes like ToB IL advancement to one extent or another...

[spoiler]What is ToB IL multiclass advancement?
IF I am crusader10, I have an initiator level (IL) of 10 for maneuvers known.
IF I am fighter8/crusader2, the fighter levels count as 1/2 towards my IL:8/2(1/2 fighter level) + crusader2 = (4+2) IL 6.  [/spoiler]

How this would apply to base classes*:
-bard = improves bardic knowledge and spell casting
-barbarian = rage/day DR
-cleric = spell casting
-druid = spell casting, wildshape
-fighter = feats
-paladin = spell casting, smites/day
-ranger = spell casting, favored enemy
-rogue = SA damage
-sorceror = spell casting
-wizard = spell casting
*This is far from the full list of "base classes"... 54 of them, I hear? each will be similar on a case by case basis, I'm sure.

How this would apply to PrC's:
PrC's would still affect one (or sometimes 2 and 3) specific classes in advancing their classes per level, and would still be treated as 1/2 level for multiclassing other classes.  This may require case by case ruling since there are x00 PrC's. 

How is spellcasting handled:
exactly like IL in ToB:

wizard10 (CL and spells of 10): 4 1st 4 2nd 3 3rd 3 4th 2 5th = 16 spells
fighter6/wiz1 (CL 4 and spells of wiz1): 1 2nd level or less
fighter6/wiz2 (CL 5 and spells of wiz2): 2 2nd level or less
fighter6/wiz3 (CL 6 and spells of wiz3): 2 2nd level or less, 1 3rd
fighter6/wiz4 (CL 7 and spells of wiz4): 3 2nd level or less, 2 3rd =5 spells
fighter6/wiz5 (CL 8 and spells of wiz5): 3 2nd level or less, 2 3rd, 1 4th.

alternatively:
fighter16/wiz1 (CL9 and spells of wiz1): 1 5th level spell or less
fighter16/wiz2 (CL10 and spells of wiz2): 2 5th level spells or less
fighter16/wiz3 (CL11 and spells of wiz3): 2 5th level spells or less, 1 6th

This is the same for all spellcasters.

Here's a more complex example:

rogue6/fighter2/wizard3 = SA 5d6, 6 bonus fighter feats, and 4th level spells, BAB 8... and I go straight into shadowlord (another of my fetishes.. sorry)
rogue6/fighter2/wizard3/TS6/fighter+1/rogue+1/wizard+1 we get..
SA 10d6, 10 FIGHTER feats, wizard CL of 12 with 6th level spells...

Questions and feedback appreciated.

[JaronK]

I think it makes spellcaster dips too obvious.  If I'm a (let's say) Warblade 18, a single dip into Wizard gives me some 5th level spells to work with, including Polymorph, plus perhaps Explosive Runes and whatever else.  Or I could go for a Cleric with Planning and Undeath domains and suddenly be able to persist Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.  It's just too much like this.  I know the concept you're going for, but this is too breakable.

Plus, hey, a single level Fighter dip for our Warblade would grant 6 Bonus feats.  Yowza.  It just makes dipping way too strong.

JaronK

[AndyJames]

How about a cap of your actual level in the "dip" class in virtual class levels?

So, a Fighter 5/Cleric 1 will cast as a Cleric 2 maximum?

Interaction with PrCs that grant +1 spellcasting is that the PrC counts as +1 spellcasting, so a Fighter 5/Cleric 1/PrC 1 will have a max casting of Cleric 4.

[fil kearney]

I appreciate the feedback, Jaronk!

Tell me though... if you run warblade 18 straight levels alonside cleric20 and wizard20... how does a dip into cleric for 2 levels, granting you 2 spells per day (one 5th and one 6th) plus the 5th and 6th domain spells... how is this relatively unbalanced?  would this put your warblade on the same tier as the cleric20 and wizard20?

what about warblade18/fighter2... a bonus 5 feats at 19, and another at 20... 6 fighter feats.. how is that stacking up against cleric20 and wizard20? or against warblade18/cleric2?

what about warblade18/fighter1/cleric1... a bonus 5 feats and a 5th level spell? is that coming close?


With all due respect, I think these are BETTER than say warblade20.. but they don't compare to cleric20.  If your argument is "fighter18/cleric2 is tougher than fighter 20"... then yes, and that's my point.  but who the hell is gonna stick out 18 levels of fighter or even warblade and THEN dip at the end, when warblade is getting 9th level maneuvers?  

or will cleric 18 bow out of casting to nab a bunch of feats?  less 9th level spell, go ahead, right?
same with wizard... they only get weaker by dipping. everything else is stronger.

couldn't that same warblade18 obtain a 5th level per-use item for 90k?
(yes, expensive-- but then again, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful at will...?)

Can you comb through this a little more closely, and show me how this is worse than cleric20, druid20, wizard20 and artificer20?



andy: how would you scale the dipping restriction? and is it just the versatility of spells that is more an issue than high level maneuver dipping?

[JaronK]

I appreciate the feedback, Jaronk!

Tell me though... if you run warblade 18 straight levels alonside cleric20 and wizard20... how does a dip into cleric for 2 levels, granting you 2 spells per day (one 5th and one 6th) plus the 5th and 6th domain spells... how is this relatively unbalanced?  would this put your warblade on the same tier as the cleric20 and wizard20?

No, it wouldn't.  But since I consider Wizard 20 overpowered anyway, that's not what I'd want to compare to.

what about warblade18/fighter2... a bonus 5 feats at 19, and another at 20... 6 fighter feats.. how is that stacking up against cleric20 and wizard20? or against warblade18/cleric2?

Again, I don't want to compare to Wizard 20 or Cleric 20.  That's too strong.  Meanwhile, I don't think you'd ever see Warblade 20 show up at all.  Nor would you see Warblade 18/Fighter 2.  It would be far better to go Warblade 16/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Druid 1.  I mean seriously, look at what those one level dips are giving you... each one is insane.  I think, other than for pure casters, you'd see every build ending with Druid 1/Fighter/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1 or similar.   Those last levels give more than any pure class could, except perhaps people getting 9th level spells (and even then, only the Tier 1s, I'd happily drop a few spells off a Beguiler or Warmage for Wildshape!).

Heck, I think Cleric 20 might not even show up anymore, not with what Cleric  19/Druid 1 gives you (unless you had Shapechange, in which case it's a closer thing).

With all due respect, I think these are BETTER than say warblade20.. but they don't compare to cleric20.  If your argument is "fighter18/cleric2 is tougher than fighter 20"... then yes, and that's my point.  but who the hell is gonna stick out 18 levels of fighter or even warblade and THEN dip at the end, when warblade is getting 9th level maneuvers?  

Me!  9th level manuevers are cute, but I'll take Wildshape as a 10th level Druid over that anyway.  Then I'll just have to make do with my pathetic little Raging Mongoose in wild shape form.

or will cleric 18 bow out of casting to nab a bunch of feats?  less 9th level spell, go ahead, right?
same with wizard... they only get weaker by dipping. everything else is stronger.

Cleric 19 already has 9th level spells.  Lose one ninth level spell for Wildshape as a 10th level Druid and spells as a 10th level Druid?  Heck, that's not a bad deal.

couldn't that same warblade18 obtain a 5th level per-use item for 90k?
(yes, expensive-- but then again, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful at will...?)

Custom items like that don't show up much.

Can you comb through this a little more closely, and show me how this is worse than cleric20, druid20, wizard20 and artificer20?

Well, this is an opinion difference I guess, but I think those are too powerful anyway, so saying "well it's not as broken as these guys" just isn't enough.  And with that said... Artificer 19/Druid 1 over Artificer 20 any day.  And DMM Persistant Cleric 19/Druid 1 over Cleric 20 any day as well, except with the possibility of trickery.

Really, it just makes those dip levels insane.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

One thing you could do, and I am not recommending it, is have "for purposes of class level only".

For instance, everything would count as monk levels for Wholeness of Body. Or caster level (but not availablity of spells)

That way, you'd actually have to have the abilities...you just wouldn't be a lower level when "level" is calculated for effect.

But I still am pretty sure that would be all kinds of broken. Not as broken, but still broken.

[SiggyDevil]

So, it's pretty much a concept that makes sure no multiclassing isn't entirely crappy?

X Fighter levels + 1 Wizard = Full Fighter/Half Wizard
or
X Wizard levels + 1 Fighter = Full Wizard/Half Fighter
etc

OK. It works. And yes, it's nothing new, but the presentation is more clear than others I've seen on, say, The Wiz forum or The Gaming Den.

Thought of it myself 5-6 years ago! I thought most other players had come to the same conclusion, seeing it so often on WOTC forum. haha.

[bkdubs123]

I agree with Elennsar, that approach is MUCH more reasonable. Throw in "Martial Study" feats for spellcasting, and other such systems, and it just might work.

[fil kearney]

just to clarify:  
commoner19/cleric1 would give you ONE (1) spell per DAY.  caster level 10, spell level 5 or less.
Sounds like you thought you'd be getting 16 spells from 1st through 5th.

Yes, big 5 are broken, so curbing them some is expected, but now that I've clarified how this would work with spells per day, does that change your perspective? 1 5th level spell per day at 19th?  compared to even a dread necro?
even warblade16/fighter1/wizard1/cleric1 is only a bonus 5 feats, a 5th level cleric spell per day and 5th level druid spell per day.

feedback as please very yes.

Hmmm.. good point about wildshape... what if the TYPES of changed shapes were limited by druid CLASS level while the "MC" level is max hit dice?  thus, commoner19/druid1 would allow 10 hit die medium animal... that would not be unbalanced, methinks...

[SiggyDevil]

No, I'd go for "advance everything except basic Hit Dice" over "just spellcaster level".

You know, things that aren't class abilities like: HP, Skill P, Saves (although this could do something too, such as give 1 Good save progression for each new class)

BAB is tricky.
It could be a universal scaling value such as 1/2 level, same for everyone, but improves by +1 for every combat-related feat or ability you take to a maximum of your level. In that way multiclass warrior/casters would still have the much-needed full BAB without resorting to Divine Power cheese.
You could also leave BAB as normal since it's pretty much a matter of adding "BAB from class X" to "BAB from class Y" to get the total, and then improve it until it equals character level with +1 from each combat feat.

[Elennsar]

As for 16/1/1 = I'm not a min maxer, so I don't know how broken this could be made. But I'd be extremely tempted to have the abilities of a 16th level Paladin (one of the working versions), 5 bonus feats, and a 5th level spell of my choice once per day instead of a 18th level paladin.

Those 5 feats would add quite a lot.

[SiggyDevil]

just to clarify: 
commoner19/cleric1 would give you ONE (1) spell per DAY.  caster level 10, spell level 5 or less.
Sounds like you thought you'd be getting 16 spells from 1st through 5th.

Yes, big 5 are broken, so curbing them some is expected, but now that I've clarified how this would work with spells per day, does that change your perspective? 1 5th level spell per day at 19th?  compared to even a dread necro?
even warblade16/fighter1/wizard1/cleric1 is only a bonus 5 feats, a 5th level cleric spell per day and 5th level druid spell per day.

feedback as please very yes.

Hmmm.. good point about wildshape... what if the TYPES of changed shapes were limited by druid CLASS level while the "MC" level is max hit dice?  thus, commoner19/druid1 would allow 10 hit die medium animal... that would not be unbalanced, methinks...

Why?

And a Commoner 19/Druid 1 instead gaining all abilities as Commoner 19 and Druid 10 (class Druid 1 + bonus 9 from half of Commoner) is NOT OVERPOWERED for level 20.
That's... asstastic.
Even if you TRIED to break it with Wizard 19/Druid 1 (effective Druid 10) it's STILL not overpowered since the 10 levels of Druid abilities don't hold up to what level 9 spells can do. At all.
You could grab a Cohort better than that for a single feat.

If anything, it helps builds such as Fighter 19/Cleric 1 (Cleric 10) for healing, Dispel, Turn Undead, etc, and that's fine.

[bkdubs123]

Saying that you can pick up a Cohort for a feat is really a poor argument, IMO. I know several DMs that do not allow players to take Leadership, myself included, precisely for the reason you bring it up. Cohorts are... obscenely bad for the game. They make multiclassing a laughable option, they give one player an entire other character worth of options and power. How is that a good thing?

This is almost the same power level at least, if not the same thing, and arguing that this is fine because Leadership is still better is a fool's errand.

[SiggyDevil]

OK here's another way of interpreting the same concept, but with a different direction.

EDIT: New thread.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2281.0

[AndyJames]

andy: how would you scale the dipping restriction? and is it just the versatility of spells that is more an issue than high level maneuver dipping?

What do you mean? I'm not sure if I got your question.

For example, Fighter 6/Cleric 4 will allow you to cast as a level 7 Cleric. Fighter 8/Cleric 4 will allow you to cast as a level 8 Cleric. Fighter 10/Cleric 4 will still only allow you to cast as a level 8 Cleric because double of 4 is 8, and so 8 is the max you can get from the cross-level additions.

I think that sort of automatically scales with levels.

Or maybe I am misreading your question?

[bkdubs123]

I'm pretty sure an 11HD Barb 6/Bard 6/Cleric 6/Druid 6/Fighter 6/Monk 6/Paladin 6/Ranger 6/Rogue 6/Sorcerer 6/Wizard 6 is more powerful than a Wizard or Cleric 11. At the very least, this depends on the campaign, and DMs rulings on certain material, but in just Core, that first character is going to be really strong. Of course it also depends on how BAB is calculated. If the "factotum" only has 4 bab, then yeah, that kinda sucks, but it still has a FUCKLOAD of spells per day. Unless, of course you put the strange restriction on spells per day as the OP suggested somewhere up there.

Though your idea on "readied powers" and slots for them is intriguing and something I have been considering working on recently (just finished beating FF5 for the third time).

I'm merely suggesting that it would probably be better to only allow the half level thing to apply to features that count class level as important. So, things like... Turn Undead and caster level, but that you wouldn't actually gain any features, more to the point spells, without spending feats a la Martial Study.

[SiggyDevil]

I'm pretty sure an 11HD Barb 6/Bard 6/Cleric 6/Druid 6/Fighter 6/Monk 6/Paladin 6/Ranger 6/Rogue 6/Sorcerer 6/Wizard 6 is more powerful than a Wizard or Cleric 11. At the very least, this depends on the campaign, and DMs rulings on certain material, but in just Core, that first character is going to be really strong. Of course it also depends on how BAB is calculated. If the "factotum" only has 4 bab, then yeah, that kinda sucks, but it still has a FUCKLOAD of spells per day. Unless, of course you put the strange restriction on spells per day as the OP suggested somewhere up there.

Though your idea on "readied powers" and slots for them is intriguing and something I have been considering working on recently (just finished beating FF5 for the third time).

I'm merely suggesting that it would probably be better to only allow the half level thing to apply to features that count class level as important. So, things like... Turn Undead and caster level, but that you wouldn't actually gain any features, more to the point spells, without spending feats a la Martial Study.

That came from some idea bouncing in another thread. One of Robby's I think.

As for the Factotum, I really don't give a shit about them. The class is craptastic and any cheese they can pull (synergy or not) in an All-PHB-Build won't be that spectacular.
Oops. Misunderstood that. 1 sec while I rethink..


This ain't core, though. These multiclass concepts we're proposing are very fluid in rules. I may have used PHB classes as example but always remember that

THIS! IS! HOUSERULES!

[SiggyDevil]

[bkdubs123]

Okay, well, if you have no problem with the power level of Wizard, Cleric, and Druid, go ahead. The way this is presented already works, and certainly doesn't break the game any more than it already is broken.

How is HD, skill points per level, BAB, etc, determined in such a multiclassing system? I assume something like the Fractional BAB and saves from Unearthed Arcana would be desirable, though in my opinion that still makes things quite strong. I'd have to compare them more one-on-one, but again, that 11HD 6th level everything character seems to be VERY playable, if not, extremely strong.

[SiggyDevil]