Author Topic: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?  (Read 2750 times)

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Balog

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Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« on: October 06, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »
I currently play in a (3.5) game with my wife and several close friends. Aside from myself and the DM, no one has much experience with DnD and tend to make very underpowered characters. Our party has been two clerics, a rogue (me), and a homebrew samurai sort of class. I'm generally our highest damage dealer, even against immune to sneak attack critters. I personally kinda like optimizing. I think it's fun, and want to be able to make a really strong character. However, as bad as everyone else is I don't want to outshine them.

So I'm thinking of making a character based on making everyone else better, so I can be powerful and make everyone else feel awesome at the same time.A few tidbits about our game that are relevant.

Our DM is an admitted munchkin, and he kinda assumes I am too. This isn't a totally crazy idea (even though it's not accurate) based on a homebrew CON based spontaneous caster character I once made... who was a weretiger. Fly + casting as many empowered orb of acids as I had spell points for + CON based spell pool + 28 CON = nuking a high level paladin npc in a few rounds with basically no damage to myself. I admit, not my best moment. So any idea I present needs to be from an independent source our he'll nerf it back to the stone age just on the assumption I'm trying to scam to be OP.

Generic DnD world, although he's kinda stingy with loot so our WBL is pretty low. He's also very limiting on magic items: we've never even been to a city where magic items worth more than 5k gold are available.

However, pretty much any written source will do. Heck, I could probably just post a homebrew on DnD wiki, not tell him it was from me, and he'd take it mostly as is. However, I don't have many splatbooks aside from Spell Compendium. I am looking to buy a few though, so suggestions on books to get are good as well.

The other players aren't idiots, they're just not good at / interested in investing time learning to optimize.

I feel like the inevitable result of this question will be "play a batman / god wizard!" and I admit it's tempting. However, I just hate hate hate Vancian casting (specifically the prepared aspect) and I always have. I've thought of going Focused Specialist and just pretending to be a sorcerer who can change his spell list, but I just have a mental hangup about wizards. So, any thoughts? Suck it up and be Batman?  Buy X splatbook, play Y class? Other options?
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Solo

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »
Bard/War Weaver

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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carnivore

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 08:56:08 PM »
play a Psion .... they are available in the SRD ... online in my sig under "Useful Stuff"

 :D
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 09:00:11 PM by carnivore »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2010, 09:11:23 PM »
A bard with dragonfire inspiration, possibly a marshall?
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Endarire

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2010, 10:15:58 PM »
Dragonborn Fire Gray Elf (or Fire Strongheart Halfilng, no Dragonborn) Transmuter3/War Weaver5/Incantatrix10/X2.

1: {Aggressive}, {Spellgifted: Transmutation}
1: Enlarge Spell, [Improved Initiative], Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, Sanctum Spell, -=FEAT IF STRONGHEART=-
3: Fiery Burst or a reserve feat, just in case
6: Leadership: Get a Bard/Marshal cohort who breaks down Inspire Courage.  Adding a Crusader level for healing maneuvers is optional.  Sublime Chord is practically required.
8: Get Iron Will from an Otuygh Hole (Complete Scoundrel 151) by this point for 3000G.
9: [Extend Spell], Persistent Spell
10: [Cooperative Metamagic]
11: [Metamagic Effect]
12: [Ocular Spell], -=FEAT=-.
13+: Choose well from this point.

Buff them.  Buff them well.  Throw some crowd control spells as well.

They shall rock because you say so.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:19:46 PM by Endarire »
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Unbeliever

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2010, 10:16:31 PM »
A bard with dragonfire inspiration, possibly a marshall?
+1, I might also try and grab Doomspeak (and maybe Haunting Melody?) and enough uses of Bardic Music to make it work.  

My first thought was to go War Weaver.  If you hate prepared spellcasting, a Sorc/War Weaver is still pretty boss.  The only thing is that the buffs can get kind of complicated for the other players.  I plan on making little crib cards and distributing them to the other players next time I make a buffer character.  The Bard's buffs are pretty simple.  

I will admit that the set-up sounds problematic.  If the DM is a munchkin, and is stingy to boot, then it's going to be really hard for the other players to keep up.  I would worry that he's implicitly expecting you to solve the problem w/ your character, which is ok so long as everyone is ok w/ it.  

Also, playing something that jacks your primary boosting stat isn't exactly rocket science ...

urarenge

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 12:18:44 AM »
you posted in Gianitp too, right?
Maybe you should try with a bard/crusader with song of the white raven?

Balog

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 03:12:40 AM »
Endarire: I'm sorry, but I don't really understand a lot of what you posted, especially the {} and [] bits. Possibly because I don't have the books they come from?

Unbeliever: as it stands, the DM loves him some random encounters. And if that random encounter is able to one shot a party member so be it. Given how very poorly put together our party is, someone needs to be able to save us. I just want to do it by making everyone else suck less.

Urarenge: yep, posted on giantitp too, but it turned into a batman wizard pissing match and no recent replies. Thought I'd try over here. :)
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 03:42:44 AM »
I think the {} are flaw feats, and the [] are bonus feats, but carn's formatting is rather awkward.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 04:07:00 AM »
They shall rock because you say so
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Balog

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 12:10:19 PM »
I'm not really familiar with flaw feats, is that SRD? In any case, our DM made us take "quirks" and we didn't get anything for it.

Is there a handbook for optimizing buff/debuffing, or just what is mentioned in the God wizard handbook?
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Mixster

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2010, 12:35:48 PM »
Going with a Ray focused sorcerer can also be very high tier 2. Definately able to make enemies suck, so your friends can kill them.

In a sorc build, you should be able to fit in Incantatrix, and a few different buffs, de-buffs, and Battlefield control spells.

The bard/warblade is also a good idea, with dragonfire inspiration and song of the white raven, your party can go bonanza, as well as you. This character would be all about giving other people extra actions, and making all their attacks deal 4d6 extra damage, or even more with proper optimization, a lot of this kind of builds should be readily available if you look through these boards.

Your party could need an arcane caster rather heavily, which is why that is my primary suggestion is a Wizard though.
A well played BC wizard can help your party a lot, while you can also seem frail when you have just around 40HP at level 8-10. What you don't tell them is you keep a Greater Mirror image handy to give your opponents at giantic miss chance that gets better for you every turn.
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Sobolev

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2010, 01:09:48 PM »
My friend played a Transmuter with Toughening Transmutation, Nerveskitter, Enlarge Person and the like in a party like this and it went pretty well.  As the DM I hardly ever hurt anyone and he never looked like the hero.
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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2010, 01:23:02 PM »
I'm not really familiar with flaw feats, is that SRD? In any case, our DM made us take "quirks" and we didn't get anything for it.
You can have up to two flaws. Each one grants you a bonus feat in exchange.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm
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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2010, 06:05:07 PM »
The bard/warblade is also a good idea, with dragonfire inspiration and song of the white raven, your party can go bonanza, as well as you. This character would be all about giving other people extra actions, and making all their attacks deal 4d6 extra damage, or even more with proper optimization, a lot of this kind of builds should be readily available if you look through these boards.

This.
Bard you know, if not go glance at their Inspire Courage song.

Warblade (or Crusader, similar class but more heal-oriented) is from Tome of Battle, it's designed to make fighters who use wire-fu, really.

Song of the White Raven is a feat from Tome of Battle that allows you to multiclass bard and either warblade or crusader and still improve inspire courage (but not bardic music per day).

Dragonfire Inspiration is a very cool feat from Dragon Magic (requires you play a dragon-blooded race, several of which are in that same book), that lets you convert the bonus to hit and damage from Inspire Courage into a number of bonus damage dice (usually fire), which basically gives all of your allies the Flaming ability, but on steroids.

You can have plenty of fun with Dragonfire Inspiration as a straight bard (or even an optimized bard) and ignore the Tome of Battle, which is, honestly, almost a whole new system for combat. You have to basically read the entire book before you willl understand it well enough to pick and choose parts from it.

Endarire

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Re: Best optimization route to support a very non-optimized group?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 12:35:06 AM »
With Song of the White Raven, your Inspire Courage level is Bard Level + Crusader Level + Warblade Level.

For example, a Bard2/Crusader18 has an Inspire Courage level of 20.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"