D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

The reason for that is 90% that there's no incentive for anyone else to say "Okay, we wait."

The game actively discourages anything that might require downtime, which is not a good idea.

[JaronK]

Yeah, I strongly prefer the idea of a total swap in an hour, because no one's going to wait a week for the ranger to swap.  Besides, the Ranger's abilities are to be a great and flexible hunter... it's those abilities that let him focus on his current prey.  It fits perfectly with the Warblade's Aptitude or the Fighter's Adaptive Feats (assuming those end up in the mix).  And yeah, Favored Enemy becomes "enemies the Ranger has studied and prepared to fight" but what's wrong with that?  It's just about perfect.  Remember, by level 2 the Rogue is dodging fireballs that explode underneath him in a 10'X10' room.  At level 1 the Barbarian gets so mad he's actually stronger.  At level 5 or so the Warblade can punch through stone walls with his bare hands.  At level 1 the Crusader is so damn inspiring that wounds close.  Is it really so unreasonable then for a Ranger to spend an hour mastering how to fight and deal with a chosen prey?

JaronK

[JaronK]

The reason for that is 90% that there's no incentive for anyone else to say "Okay, we wait."

The game actively discourages anything that might require downtime, which is not a good idea.

This is an adventure game, not a waiting game.  Waiting is not fun.  Having an hour in the morning where the Ranger prepares to fight the upcoming foes, the Fighter chooses his feats, the Wizard preps his spells, and the Warblade choses his weapon masteries?  That's fine.  Saying "okay, stop adventuring now, we're all going to spend a week waiting for the Ranger, and maybe the Wizard can craft something too" isn't fun.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

What's not fun is a game that's "Let's rush through everything as fast as possible because everone has the maturity of a six year old."

If players actually had to wait a week, that would be one thing. When it's just the characters...grow the fuck up.

[JaronK]

Watch your language.

You know, most DMs I know like to keep the story moving, so a week's downtime just doesn't happen except between major adventures.  That being the case, it would be common for a Ranger not to know what enemies he's going to face until he's in the thick of it and unable to swap.  Thus, FE becomes a worthless ability for a long time, and a Ranger may spend weeks fighting the same baddies without ever being able to make his FE bonus target them.  That's lame.

Rushing isn't because people need to grow up or have no maturity.  In an adventure game, the world may end in a week if you don't hop to it.  The Dragon will destroy the village, the Mindflayers will control the kingdom, whatever.  You may not have a week.  In fact, in most of the best campaigns that's exactly the case.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Is swearing discouraged in any formal way on this site?

(Serious question, neutral tone)

Regarding the game:

If you're facing "one long continuous struggle, without a chance to pause", you're probably not facing foes that you have no idea who they are until you get in the middle of it.

Similarly, a ranger should not -always- be able to rely on his favored enemy bonus. Sure, if he picks something, he should be able to be pretty confident it'll be useful, but it should not be "Okay, he picked orcs and undead. I must include orcs and undead, nevermind where the party are or what I was planning or what makes sense or anything else." Some times, you'll run into your favored enemy or enemies 90% of the time. Sometimes, you'll have guessed wrong and be prepared for something that didn't happen. All the DM owes you is a fair chance to find out what you'll be facing, not a "bonus vs. all encounters".

So, you should be able to make an educated guess on what you'll face in an adventure.

A DM who insists that the characters keep going day after day, without any days "off" as if it were, might be reasonable in some campaigns. But a campaign where there is -never- time to rest, recover, etc. and you must keep moving is straining plausibility to the limits.

So, if you are never able to take a break, either the DM is determined to ignore all matter of fatigue and other such concerns, or you're rushing because you don't want to wait.

You said originally "waiting is not fun". The possibility, however likely, that the "situation doesn't permit it", you pulled out here...if that's your point, then I note that there are plenty of times when you don't need to rush quite like that. If that's not your point, and it's merely that "players don't want to have their characters wait", I stand on my comment about player immaturity.

Not everything can happen instantly.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I strongly prefer the idea of a total swap in an hour, because no one's going to wait a week for the ranger to swap.  Besides, the Ranger's abilities are to be a great and flexible hunter... it's those abilities that let him focus on his current prey.  It fits perfectly with the Warblade's Aptitude or the Fighter's Adaptive Feats (assuming those end up in the mix).  And yeah, Favored Enemy becomes "enemies the Ranger has studied and prepared to fight" but what's wrong with that?  It's just about perfect.  Remember, by level 2 the Rogue is dodging fireballs that explode underneath him in a 10'X10' room.  At level 1 the Barbarian gets so mad he's actually stronger.  At level 5 or so the Warblade can punch through stone walls with his bare hands.  At level 1 the Crusader is so damn inspiring that wounds close.  Is it really so unreasonable then for a Ranger to spend an hour mastering how to fight and deal with a chosen prey?

JaronK

I think I'm still in favor of the hour training for a swap.  I also like the fulff on this. 

We can argue fluff all we want.  When we're talking about a fantasy RPG, anyone can build a case on anything based on whatever fluff they prefer.  I think the mechainic here represents what we need while adding to the veratility of the class without going nuts.


So, where are we at with the ranger? 
- One hour to swap favored enemy.
- full animial companion progression.
- TWF ranger gets an attack with each weapon as a standard action @ level 6.
- TWF ranger TW Rend @ level 11.

Does that sound about right?

Is swearing discouraged in any formal way on this site?

(Serious question, neutral tone)

Swearing in general?  I don't think it's discouraged.  Swearing at someone?  That's certainly falling closer to the "no douchebaggery" rule.

[Elennsar]

Well, then I should have been clearer. "Players who don't want to be told something takes a week IC should grow the fuck up."

The point was "people who are too impaitent to wait", not a no-names-mentioned insult of Jaron.

If I thought he should, I'd have said so with considerably less tact.

And why do we need to have favored enemy swapped so easily?

Seriously. This is basically "I focus on the enemy's I expect to face tomorrow." There's not the slightest reason not to play it that way, regardless of how little sense it makes to switch that quickly.

As for barbarians and anger: Berserk fury (IRL...an ability quite scary, to say the least.) is 80% adrenaline, 20% humans-are-weird. "Rage" in the sense bad temper isn't -quite- it.

As for crusaders: Wait. Don't D&D hit points have no relationship to actual injury? I can never keep it straight if they're supposed to or not with all the *censored* going around about them (not attacking anyone here, just the game).

So, yes it is that unfitting. At the minimum, the ranger should have to know the prey backwards and forwards to be able to -select- it. Not just have a "Oh, I think we're going to fight kobolds today, I'll prepare against that."

Frankly, if you want rangers to get +2 (or more) to all encounters in a given day, just say so, with the limitation that he has to be able to recognize what he's fighting (if he recognizes it's a troll, he gets the biggest possible bonus).

That's essentially what you're doing, only without the pointless "it takes an hour" which does nothing to represent how long it takes in any way shape or form. All it does is make those who do want to encourage downtime have less reason to make there be any point to it other than players willing to humor them for the sake of humoring them.

[Midnight_v]

I think I'm still in favor of the hour training for a swap.  I also like the fulff on this. 

We can argue fluff all we want.  When we're talking about a fantasy RPG, anyone can build a case on anything based on whatever fluff they prefer.  I think the mechainic here represents what we need while adding to the veratility of the class without going nuts.


So, where are we at with the ranger? 
- One hour to swap favored enemy.
- full animial companion progression.
- TWF ranger gets an attack with each weapon as a standard action @ level 6.
- TWF ranger TW Rend @ level 11.

Does that sound about right?

When someone first suggested it, I hated it so I said nothing but in this final form?
I whole heartedly agree with these changes.
... Yeah thats pretty much awsome...
Though the ranger with the bow still owns the twf ranger... its somthing...

Okay, Spells.
Consider...
  add one more use perday for all partial casters OR Give them access to the spell list of the full casting version of the class ie rangers cast spell from the druid list 1-4 level + its special ranger spells.
I think either of these would be inline with fixing those "Magical woodland fighters"

[RobbyPants]

Okay, Spells.
Consider...
  add one more use perday for all partial casters OR Give them access to the spell list of the full casting version of the class ie rangers cast spell from the druid list 1-4 level + its special ranger spells.
I think either of these would be inline with fixing those "Magical woodland fighters"

Should they have full caster level instead of half?

[Kuroimaken]

Should they have full caster level instead of half?

Definitely. It sucks ass that your spell list blows like a nymphomaniac nun, it sucks WORSE when the few spells you have with a duration get that duration sliced in half.

[RobbyPants]

Should they have full caster level instead of half?

Definitely. It sucks ass that your spell list blows like a nymphomaniac nun, it sucks WORSE when the few spells you have with a duration get that duration sliced in half.

Wow.  Interesting visual.  So, let see:

- One hour to swap favored enemy.
- full animial companion progression.
- TWF ranger gets an attack with each weapon as a standard action @ level 6.
- TWF ranger TW Rend @ level 11.
- Caster level = ranger level, not half

I'm still iffy on giving them all 4th level and lower druid spells.  I'll have to take a look at the spell list before I say anything for sure.

[Risada]

Should they have full caster level instead of half?

Definitely. It sucks ass that your spell list blows like a nymphomaniac nun, it sucks WORSE when the few spells you have with a duration get that duration sliced in half.

Wow.  Interesting visual.  So, let see:

- One hour to swap favored enemy.
- full animial companion progression.
- TWF ranger gets an attack with each weapon as a standard action @ level 6.
- TWF ranger TW Rend @ level 11.
- Caster level = ranger level, not half

I'm still iffy on giving them all 4th level and lower druid spells.  I'll have to take a look at the spell list before I say anything for sure.

Meh.... the most dangerous stuff is above 4th (most of the Bite of XYZ), so could I care less...

[SiggyDevil]

So, where are we at with the ranger? 
- One hour to swap favored enemy.
- full animial companion progression.
- TWF ranger gets an attack with each weapon as a standard action @ level 6.
- TWF ranger TW Rend @ level 11.
- caster level etc etc
Does that sound about right?

Looks good right there as it is grow the fuck up. 
Make sure the animal companion progression is identical to Druid's in every way. It should probably also be a feat for anyone to take (Beastmaster Fighter! Barbarian with Baboons! Wizard with a Swarm of Toads!) but that's another matter.

I also recommend giving Ranger back their double progress in ranged and TWF tracks. It shouldn't be gained on the same levels, but rather divided among any other blank levels.

Caster level = character level is always good for everyone (except full caster fans, they don't like toestepping) but spell access is another matter. Rangers should cast as Druids half their level but also retain access to the Ranger-only spells, natch.
I have plans for Paladins casting Cleric spells in a similar manner, as well as Fighter and Barbarian getting their own spell lists of interesting self-buffs and a smattering of mobility options from many other classes, but that's another matter!

[JaronK]

One thing to consider was that the Wild Shape varient should be balanced against the TWF and Archery styles... I'm not quite sure it is yet, as it's quite strong.  Perhaps the Wild Shape version would have the half caster level thing, due to being less connected with magic and more with animals?

JaronK

[RabidPirateMan]

I'm not convinced on the whole 'swap FE whenever you want.'

An hour is pretty easy to get in game before a normal encounter.  This way, you basically run around with FE Almost Everything.

What kind of encounters wouldn't have this?  Hiding and MS keep him hidden, he scouts out and sees that there are XYZ in the next room, takes an hour to attune and gets 10 free damage (unless were buffing that too).  Random encounter?  Spot or listen, hide and move silent away, attune and kick ass.  Ambush?  Full retreat, attune, hide and move silent, spot and kill.  Sure, if the DM wants to intervene he can, but other than that I can't figure a way for the ranger not to be able to slip away and try and remember where dragons hate being stabbed.

I'll also bring this up again- the animal companion is one of the strongest class features in the game.  Ranger also has combat feats and spells and skill points.  Is he really all that useless if he isn't fighting his favored enemy?  I'd say he's more powerful than a Barbarian who has no rages or a Paladin without smites, so why are we focusing on making his 'I am quite powerful against certain foes' attack into 'I am quite powerful against any foe if I can hide in a ropetrick for an hour?'

On other matters, I'd say keep the separate TWF and archery trees, add in wildshape alt class feature and the mounted ranger option from that dragon mag.  Plenty of versatility without buffing him too much.

[SiggyDevil]

Or, one could have Wildshape as spells enhanced with feats. If a Druid (or caster using Druid spells, such as Ranger) pursues the shaper aspect, they lose more of their spellcasting nature by virtue of spell selection. One can dabble for variety in each but lose focus since the related feats would go only one way or the other.
Plant/weather/element druid, or animalist? The player chooses.

Likewise Druid HD basics are very middle-of-the-road so there's a lot of room to go either way. The Wildshaper would improve on combat basics such as attack bonus (but not necessarily BAB), HP, speed and AC mostly from acquiring new forms.

Animal shape bonuses must be in line with the output of most warriors of the same level, even if this means not exactly matching the animal it imitates.

[Risada]

What kind of encounters wouldn't have this?  Hiding and MS keep him hidden, he scouts out and sees that there are XYZ in the next room, takes an hour to attune and gets 10 free damage (unless were buffing that too).  Random encounter?  Spot or listen, hide and move silent away, attune and kick ass.  Ambush?  Full retreat, attune, hide and move silent, spot and kill.  Sure, if the DM wants to intervene he can, but other than that I can't figure a way for the ranger not to be able to slip away and try and remember where dragons hate being stabbed.

Then , how about capping the amount of FE (if going the 1 hour swap stuff),so it can't be abused like this?

Or maybe doing 8 hour rest to swap FE as someone already pointed out...

[JaronK]

Well, I feel that the current Wildshape Ranger is pretty darn balanced, and also it lets you do a character concept that you can't do right now, namely a shapeshifter that's more martial focused and not a heavy spellcaster.  So I'd like to see something very like it remain possible.

As to the swapping, an hour is long enough that you can't do it for random encounters, and if the whole thing gets pretty fast paced you can't keep doing it, but given the opportunity you can refocus yourself towards what you think is coming up.  That seems about right.  You can't really see what's in the next room and then wait an hour, and the assumption that you could hide and wait an hour during a random encounter is assuming that there's no one else in the party, which just isn't right.  If you slip away, that random encounter is going to attack your party.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Don't forget that not every party is stealthy just like not every ranger has maxed out Hide/MS. Spot-the-guy-slip-away-and-remember-to-bash-his-testicles doesn't sound right to me (reminds me of my gripe about encounter powers in 4e - bash, run away, hide, rinse, lather, repeat).