D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[AndyJames]

Eeewww! Get your Street Frakker out of my wuxia!

[Elennsar]

I can (with bad grace) live with fighters being able to make 300 (the movie, the historical Spartans are refered to as the Three Hundred when I remember to make the distinction for clarity).

What I mind (and want to work on ensuring the overpowered are weakened to do) is to make it so that competent professional soldier =/= mook.

If you run into a horde of Persian levies, you'll slaughter them. This is good. Praise the Lord of the great and the good mind and do so all day. (rules to limit that belong elsewhere than the rebalancing thread.)

However, when you run into the legions of Rome or the phalanx of Sparta, the fact that you are 17th level should not mean that you're invulnerable to what they do.

That's my objection. A competent normal is very, very, very likely to be beaten one-on-one (as in, you'd have to be horribly unlucky and the other guy "blessed" by the Lord of Eternal Ice.)

As to Orion: I'm fine with that, as stated. My reasoning is that I do not want professional soldiers becoming irrelevant simply because wuxia (which is a tolerable model East or West as long as we adjust things to deal with the fact the West's heroes wore armor and used different weapons most of the time.) heroes are what we want in high level PCs.

An army of ten thousand men should not be taken lightly by any lone fighter.

On the other hand, if the King of Kings (Xerxes) sends his immortals at you, and you're one of the Three Hundred (or 300), you should be able to kick their butts.

Let me sum it up.

A competent soldier is not a mook.
Mooks are to be slaughtered by the dozen. This needs to be worked on to get that mechanic down right. (I'm not sure if the game as written represents that as well as I'd like, so if not, I'm going to see if I can drum up something and suggest it. Not rebalancing per se, but as something as part of the overall hope-to-make-D&D-better effort.)
Lesser foes (including but not limited to competent soldiers) should be able to kill heroes.
That does not meant that they ever will, but it should not be mechanically impossible.
Heroes should not be capable of flight simply because they're badass.
Heroes should be capable of doing things pushing human limits past what we endure on Terra if they're good enough and if they focus at doing that thing.
Being able to deflect a blizzard of arrows is cool. It is not easy.
Being a hero should definately be cool. Not necessarily high powered, but always cool. So finding things that are awesome should be done before finding "incredibly potent technique of uber slaying". Those rarely balance well, in any case.

So, on that note: I would drop awe of perfection and rework ki reinforce on the monk. Being in awe of an Enlightened Being makes sense when that is fundementally superior to a lesser being. In a setting where that philosophy is not dominant (whether or not it is believed in at all), it doesn't fit.

A 20th level monk should be no closer to being a being of awe-inspiring perfection (in the philosophical sense) than a 20th level anything else.

[Midnight_v]

A 20th level monk should be no closer to being a being of awe-inspiring perfection (in the philosophical sense) than a 20th level anything else.

That statement (the only thing right in your post) is only right in that balance wise it shouldn't be, due the the fact that other people will be doing "Awe inspiring" versions of their own lifelong gimmick.

[Elennsar]

Both balance wise and fluff wise. There is nothing that justifies saying that a Monk has reached Enlightenment simply because he's high level.

And if we're using wuxia as a basis, monks achieve a higher level of I-can-kick-ass, not a higher level of I-am-one-with-the-secrets-of-the-world.

[Orion]

That's very much a matter of description. Monk ass-kicking should look graceful and almost dance-like. Fighter ass-kicking would typically be more efficient, business-like. Rogue ass-kicking is sneaky. Etc.

[JaronK]

So, my thoughts on the Monk.

The Monk is actually a very well made class, all in all, except for one flaw.  It's got plenty of flavor, and plenty of people love Monks for that.  Plus, it has unique and cool and characterful abilities.  That's great.  The only real issue with the class is power level... most of the abilities just don't do things that are useful (who cares if you can run fast and safe fall at levels where everyone needs to fly, for example?), and those that are useful aren't enough.

So, if we can just take existing Monk abilities and make them strong and potent, then we'll be well off.  So here's what I think the Monk should have, and yes, some of these are stolen from other people in this thread.

1)  Flurry of Blows should work with standard action strikes, allowing for hit and run tactics.  Simply saying you get the extra attacks even on a standard action (so an 11th level Monk could make three attacks as a standard action) works just fine.

2)  Right now, Monks have trouble with DR.  Fluffwise, I think Monks being able to break boards with their bare hands fits too.  As such, how about giving them the ability to make a single attack as a full round action that ignores DR and Hardness, and perhaps does double damage (to make up for the lost attacks a bit)?  That gives a nice "Monk focuses his chi and then breaks stuff" effect.  Call it Focused Ki Strike or something.  That solves the DR problem somewhat, and has the added benefit of giving them more out of combat utility (since breaking through walls and locks is often handy).

3)  Monks in movies and such are manueverable as all heck, so how about giving a bonus equal to your Monk level to Jump, Balance, Climb, and Tumble checks?  Then give Monks the speed climb ability from the CA Ninja or something like Up the Walls and perhaps a once per encounter balance on air ability that lets them hang in the air and attack flying enemies.  None of it would be quite flight per se, but it might be enough to let them actually fight flying enemies.  Also, the Fast Run ability might apply half its bonus to all other movement modes, so a Monk who gains flight through other means would still be really fast and still be able to use that ability.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

I disagree with standard action strikes. Hit-and-run is a "hit, run, get them to chase you, and take advantage" tactic.

Monks shouldn't get three attacks out of it.

Though, if Flurry of Blows only allowed one extra hit, and at a cost to accuracy (if monks need to hit more often then give them a better BAB), I'd be willing to listen to it.

As for for DR and monks: As someone who prefered 3e's DR system, maybe we could reintroduce that, as well as adjusting ki strike and such to be more friendly to monks handling DR.

As for monks and flight (and flight in general): Why oh why do we have to make characters capable of handling flying foes as a given (monks or anyone else)?

As for monks in general: I believe I dropped a link to a Martial Artist class somewhere back in here, if not, I'll refind it. I'd strongly suggest replacing the monk with that.

That way, if you want to be a monk, great, if you want a swashbuckler, we have one here, if you want to play a Zen archer, we have it too.

I'm not against the idea of the monk class, but I do think that would be a good replacement, provided it was possible to play monks with their desired abilities (whatever those are) from it.

[Kuroimaken]

Forgive me, Elennsar, but I'm currently failing to see exactly what you want.

Do you want to make Fighters tougher but defeatable by mooks (albeit by a ton of them)? Or do you want to just make them tougher?

Eeewww! Get your Street Frakker out of my wuxia!

Sorry. I guess you'd have to have been a Brazillian kid in the 90's to understand why I picked that particular example.

3)  Monks in movies and such are manueverable as all heck, so how about giving a bonus equal to your Monk level to Jump, Balance, Climb, and Tumble checks?  Then give Monks the speed climb ability from the CA Ninja or something like Up the Walls and perhaps a once per encounter balance on air ability that lets them hang in the air and attack flying enemies.  None of it would be quite flight per se, but it might be enough to let them actually fight flying enemies.  Also, the Fast Run ability might apply half its bonus to all other movement modes, so a Monk who gains flight through other means would still be really fast and still be able to use that ability.

This has been debated, though not really concluded. I don't think there were many against it.

1)  Flurry of Blows should work with standard action strikes, allowing for hit and run tactics.  Simply saying you get the extra attacks even on a standard action (so an 11th level Monk could make three attacks as a standard action) works just fine.

I have to agree that it doesn't feel like hit and run to me. Frankly, why not use multipliers instead? Same net result, less rolls (and fists don't have good crit ranges, so there is minimal damage loss from not using multiple attacks instead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the odds of getting multiple hits in versus getting one massive hit in are smaller). 

2)  Right now, Monks have trouble with DR.  Fluffwise, I think Monks being able to break boards with their bare hands fits too.  As such, how about giving them the ability to make a single attack as a full round action that ignores DR and Hardness, and perhaps does double damage (to make up for the lost attacks a bit)?  That gives a nice "Monk focuses his chi and then breaks stuff" effect.  Call it Focused Ki Strike or something.  That solves the DR problem somewhat, and has the added benefit of giving them more out of combat utility (since breaking through walls and locks is often handy).

Sounds good to me.

[AndyJames]

Eeewww! Get your Street Frakker out of my wuxia!

Let me add something to the end of that:

[Elennsar]

Choice #1. A mook vs. a fighter will get swatted. A fighter attacked by ten mooks will probably come out of it covered in their blood. A fighter attacked by a hundred mooks has a problem. A fighter attacked by a thousand mooks is a corpse.

Mind, a good fighter (whether the armored-and-armed kind, or the quick-on-the-feet kind) should be able to avoid getting in a position to be swarmed by a hundred mooks.

And competent but low level opponents should not become mooks simply because levels are gained. Depending, of course. But a 6th level opponent should not be as insignificant as a 1st level opponent at 15th level.

[Risada]

Eeewww! Get your Street Frakker out of my wuxia!

Sorry. I guess you'd have to have been a Brazillian kid in the 90's to understand why I picked that particular example.

Don't worry, Kuro, I understand you 


Back into topic.... I thought the monk stuff was mostly ready.... what do you guys want him yo have? Something like this?

Acrobatics Mastery (Ex): starting at 5th level, the monk gains an insight bonus bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble checks equal to her class level. Additionaly, at 10th level, the monk can take 10 at such checks even when not normally allowed.

Thoughts?

EDIT: added Elennsar's suggestions...

[Elennsar]

For reasons I cannot state any cause for certainty at:

5th level and monk level.

10th level and taking 10.

[Orion]

What about a bonus to Jump? Have we covered that?

[Midnight_v]

Choice #2
We let fighters slaugter mooks.

Just like wolverine in the comic books (thanks for the reference)
Or
Conan in the movies.
Or
Drizzt in the novels (allegedly dude killed 1,000 orcs)

So I'm sorry that rubric of the fighter being the "Mook Killer" is already established.
In fact a level 20 fighter should salughter level 1 fighters by the horde, thats what breaching the 11 wall is like.
  Name an action hero, regardless of actual numbers it is understood that they kill(defeat) ridiculous amounts of mooks before a boss shows up.
So should it be in d&d allowed to be an action hero.
 
Your entire argument contends on making high level fighters unable to do things appropriate to the challenge rating.
The warduke is supposed to be terrifying when he shows up.
You're idea set invariably has lead to "Warrior classes don't get nice things" or "can't do cool shit" or "should be limited somewhat by realword history."
Which is the same weak logic that got us into the "making fighters cry" situation 3.5 ended up with.

I have no problem with you disagreeing but I don't found your argument very sound, or even in line with what Pop culture dictates high level warriors should be doing.

  I have a severe issue with your attempts to "Normalize" warrior types, because it is already a fantastic game. Were not talking about the level in which we're playing "Troy" you want to normalize levels where the fighter is supposed to be killing Grendal(s). (another situation opposite in this way but the same point, Umpteen mooks got slaugtered over the months/year  before Beowulf showed and got naked and ripped the things arm off!) Frankly mooks exist to be slaugtered.

Yes. Mooks exist to be Slaugtered.

What about a bonus to Jump? Have we covered that?

*shrug* Coverd by feats and taking feats. Also the monk we're using gets a swift fly action eventually, so before that you can take "Leap of the Heavens" or just hold out a bit and then you can do the crouching tiger thing.
But yes that was discussed and covered.


Now... all that aside.
I really want to discuss the ranger.

Do we have a solid answer for which variant to start with?  I"m ... I'm at a loss.

One think I want to do is Take Scout and Ranger and blend them and just get rid of the "Swift hunter" feat all together. See all I see is swift hunters anyway for mostly non-multiclass rangers.
That and full animal compaion progression.
How does that sound?

I head someone talk about a wildshape ranger but I never studied it. Anybody?

[Risada]

Now... all that aside.
I really want to discuss the ranger.

Do we have a solid answer for which variant to start with?  I"m ... I'm at a loss.

One think I want to do is Take Scout and Ranger and blend them and just get rid of the "Swift hunter" feat all together. See all I see is swift hunters anyway for mostly non-multiclass rangers.
That and full animal compaion progression.
How does that sound?

I head someone talk about a wildshape ranger but I never studied it. Anybody?

Well.... it's gonna be a lot of class features for the Ranger if we keep both Favored Enemy and throw in Skirmish.... plus the other stuff....

Before discussing what todo with a Ranger, it's better if we can define "what" is a Ranger: the guy that specializes in hunting some kind of creatures, the guy that become a stronger creature...

[RabidPirateMan]

Cool, were back to the Monk's acrobatics debate again.

With the monk now having 6 skill points a level, won't it be easier to put points into his other skills?  If he wants to max out Hide, MS, Concentration, Spot and Listen, even at 10 int he has points free to put into Balance, Jump or Tumble over time.

What kind of DCs are we looking at?  Do we want a monk to be able to leap over mountains without investing a single skill point into jump?  Should he be able to hang out on the tip of a needle without learning any balance?

If a monk wants to invest more skillpoints into moves like that, I think he easily can.

[Risada]

Cool, were back to the Monk's acrobatics debate again.

With the monk now having 6 skill points a level, won't it be easier to put points into his other skills?  If he wants to max out Hide, MS, Concentration, Spot and Listen, even at 10 int he has points free to put into Balance, Jump or Tumble over time.

What kind of DCs are we looking at?  Do we want a monk to be able to leap over mountains without investing a single skill point into jump?  Should he be able to hang out on the tip of a needle without learning any balance?

If a monk wants to invest more skillpoints into moves like that, I think he easily can.

It wasn't me. I'm innocent!! 

Well... if people want monks running in walls (Prince of Persia style)....

Wall Dash (Ex): starting at ?th level, the monk can attempt to use walls to run. The monk must be adjacent to a wall to use this ability. The monk makes a Balance check equal to 4 times (3?) the distance she wants to move in a wall. Each square move in this way counts as 2 squares. If the monk doesn't end this movement in a plane surface, she falls as normal.

Made in a rush, but I guess it might give some ideas to where to go....

[RobbyPants]

Now... all that aside.
I really want to discuss the ranger.

Do we have a solid answer for which variant to start with?  I"m ... I'm at a loss.

One think I want to do is Take Scout and Ranger and blend them and just get rid of the "Swift hunter" feat all together. See all I see is swift hunters anyway for mostly non-multiclass rangers.
That and full animal compaion progression.
How does that sound?

I head someone talk about a wildshape ranger but I never studied it. Anybody?

I brought up the beginnings of a ranger a couple pages back.  I strarted realizing it needed more work, because I want to roll Improved and Greater TWF into the base TWF feat.  This opened up levels 6 and 11 for the TWF combat style.  Then I got to thinking that there's no reason the feats need to come at levels 6 and 11 at that point.  I didn't really get much farther than that.

Also, what book is the wildshape ranger in?

Well... if people want monks running in walls (Prince of Persia style)....

Wall Dash (Ex): starting at ?th level, the monk can attempt to use walls to run. The monk must be adjacent to a wall to use this ability. The monk makes a Balance check equal to 4 times (3?) the distance she wants to move in a wall. Each square move in this way counts as 2 squares. If the monk doesn't end this movement in a plane surface, she falls as normal.

Made in a rush, but I guess it might give some ideas to where to go....

Basically, you're just taking Up the Walls, removing the need for psionic focus, and adding in a Balance check, right?

[Kuroimaken]

Cool, were back to the Monk's acrobatics debate again.

With the monk now having 6 skill points a level, won't it be easier to put points into his other skills?  If he wants to max out Hide, MS, Concentration, Spot and Listen, even at 10 int he has points free to put into Balance, Jump or Tumble over time.

What kind of DCs are we looking at?  Do we want a monk to be able to leap over mountains without investing a single skill point into jump?  Should he be able to hang out on the tip of a needle without learning any balance?

If a monk wants to invest more skillpoints into moves like that, I think he easily can.

Well, looking at the current DCs for this kind of stunt, if all Monks have to rely on are their skill points and ability increases (and maybe a +30 competence bonus item), they can only reliably pull it off around, say... level 40-something, maybe fifty. So either we lower the DCs or give them ludicrously high bonuses to Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble. Or maybe both.

[Risada]

Well... if people want monks running in walls (Prince of Persia style)....

Wall Dash (Ex): starting at ?th level, the monk can attempt to use walls to run. The monk must be adjacent to a wall to use this ability. The monk makes a Balance check equal to 4 times (3?) the distance she wants to move in a wall. Each square move in this way counts as 2 squares. If the monk doesn't end this movement in a plane surface, she falls as normal.

Made in a rush, but I guess it might give some ideas to where to go....

Basically, you're just taking Up the Walls, removing the need for psionic focus, and adding in a Balance check, right?

Well.... to be quite frank... I didn't even thought about the Up the Walls.... I was thinking on the Jump DCs at the time....

Well, looking at the current DCs for this kind of stunt, if all Monks have to rely on are their skill points and ability increases (and maybe a +30 competence bonus item), they can only reliably pull it off around, say... level 40-something, maybe fifty. So either we lower the DCs or give them ludicrously high bonuses to Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble. Or maybe both.

I already posted this before, but let's bring it up again:

Acrobatics Mastery (Ex): starting at 5th level, the monk gains an insight bonus bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks equal to twice her class level. Additionaly, at 10th level, the monk can take 10 at such checks even when not normally allowed.

2x monk level only if we go for high DCs, otherwise monk level may be enough...