D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Midnight_v]

Wait!  A few things   :-[

Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.
 

We should add this at Level 7~8.

Tactical Genius (ex): The fighter receives an extra immediate action each turn

Array of Stunts
At 17th level the fighter gains an extra swift action each round.  This extra action can also be used as an immediate action.

Same ability one at level 7 one at level 17. I think he shuold get both of these.
This will max him out at 3 foils at level 20.
Either way :
I at least propose the name change.
Stunts? What is this guy a carnival worker?
 I was gonna combine these 2 classes today but you beat me to it good work.
Thank you for considering Surprise lunge btw.

Minor changes.

Level 7.
Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.

Array of stunts in the middle afterwards. level 13 maybe


Tactical genious at the level 19/along with G.Shake it off.

Though, I suppose tactical genious could be offered as a feat. Hmm...

[Orion]

Seriously, I don't care if it's possible in real life.  A 20th level Fighter is competing with casters who are bending reality...

I fully agree. I have no problem with high-level fighters doing the impossible, and doing it without magic. That should be their shtick.

[Elennsar]

Having Fighters be able to do the impossible? That's not the problem. The problem is their equipment, which is not chosen by Dem(D-M, I'm so not funny), overgod and master of all They survey, being able to do that.

As noted, the 400 yard limit isn't a problem with archers. The bow is not capable of projecting an arrow further than that. If you had a bow so capable, it wouldn't be a problem. (Helllloooo dragonbone?)

As stated, again, I would rather have it be possible to shoot with pin-point accuracy (which is more fitting to "I am a legendary archer!"...we don't hear of Robin Hood competing for sheer distance, we hear of him splitting arrows.) at semi-believable ranges than have shots at the moon. Epic is one thing, silly is another. And other than for laughs, how often are you going to shoot at the moon with the intent to hit it?

As for the laws of physics applying to some but not all...well, if you don't use magic, and you don't use chi, and you don't use anything else supernatural, then how are you able to do something supernatural? Sheer adrenaline? Most legends at anywhere near this point are not human to begin with. Not uber capable humans who probably were blessed by the Gods (Beowulf, St. George, etc.) but demigods. Actual part-divine beings. So "He's up there with legends!" needs to remember this. It may not change anything, but we are looking at beings who aren't human to begin with, rather than having become more than human.

Also: "This doesn't exist in our world" and "this is implausible" are two different things. Just because magic is not real does not mean that it is unrealistic.

Take the fact Rasputin survived more poison than any natural human should have survived, healed a hemophaliac, and surviving being shot at (again, more times than a human should have survived). Believable? Hell no. Apparently true? Yes.

Or Jeanne D'Arc. Seriously. If she wasn't proven historical I'd swear she was a myth.

And both of those are historical people, reasonably well documented.
 
As for Rangers:

A suggestion: Do we need the Track feat? I mean, is being able to track worth a feat slot?

As for Endurance: Keep it. Maybe add more, but it does fit them to have it.

[JaronK]

Once again El, please learn about what classes can already do before deciding things about balance.  An epic Fighter, as soon as he gets his first epic feat, can literally hit the moon with an arrow from any bow he wants.  A low level Ranger gets a spell that doubles the range of his bow anyway.  Cragtop Archers can fire shots measured in miles, and Psions can fire at 7+ mile ranges.  And you're complaining about a Fighter 20 doubling his range (still far less than what a Cragtop Archer can do)?  Seriously?  And then you're saying the equipment is the problem because it's not realistic, when he's almost certainly using a MAGIC bow? 

Again... it's unrealistic that a Fighter 20 with a magical bow can shoot pretty far, but not as far as a bunch of other classes?

The point is, ultra long range archery already exists in the game.  Is it possible in real life?  No.  Neither is making cars explode with every shot from your gun.  The point is, at that level you should be playing an action hero capable of doing things that are impossible, and simply based on possible things. 
JaronK

[Orion]

You know, this has me thinking now. I apologise if I'm behind the curve, here, but it seems to me that the non-magic classes (and we've been talking about the fighter and the monk so far) basically need a way to do the impossible without the conceit of magic. Wizards and Clerics get to do the impossible. That's their shtick. Fighters don't get to, though, because for some odd reason, we pick them as the poor schmucks who have to be 'realistic.' So the goal, here (I think), is to give the fighter et al. a mechanic for doing the impossible. I wonder if allowing access to Epic feats earlier than other classes might be a way to go with this? Just a thought, that occurred to me, just now, in my head.

[Elennsar]

Once again, Jaron, realize that I interpeted your "tier 3" as meaning "lower the level of power for the overly powerful" as well as "increase it for those who are too weak".

And 20th level is not merely "action movie hero". Its "Hercules, move over."

And regarding magic bows...if his bow is enchanted to be "can shoot off a fly's testicles at three kilometers.", that's one thing. A "hits even harder and more often" is not going to compensate for the wood here.

And in regards to said other classes: Ew and ew and ew and ew and ew.

I'm not stating "the fighter is too strong!". Note the suggestion for "can hit with great accuracy" as a replacement...I'm not interested in the fighter being weak, at all. And being able to shoot at two hundred yards (4 range increments + Wisdom 18) with the same accuracy as at 50 feet is nothing to scoff at.

I'm stating that shooting over half a mile a power that is unbelievable...the fact that other classes can do even more unbelievable feats of archery should obviously be seen as coming in under the "This is also absurd", rather than reading "Fighters shouldn't be able to do this but (other class archer) can."

That is not the point, never has been and never will be.  The point is that a yew bow simply cannot launch an arrow further than about 400 yards. A dragonbone bow, maybe. A bow of thiswoodthatissuperiortoanythingonEarth, maybe. Both would be special bows (if not exactly unobtainable for our wannabe William Tell/Robin Hood/Artemis.)

As for equipment, I'm saying that the problem is that while it can be somewhat justified for the character to do feats far beyond anything on Earth, that he should still have to have equally epic (small e) equipment to do so.

I don't mind action movies as long as I can believe that it would be possible...however unlikely...to pull off a given feat. I like my rpgs to do the same thing...running the mile in four minutes or less should be a feat (small f). Taking on ten men at once should be a feat (big F, probably).

For instance, I can imagine the Musketeers charging a group of guys with the firearms of the day without getting seriously hurt because I know (as a student of history) that the accuracy of those weapons was abysmal and that the training of soldiers in marksmanship was nonexistant.

So, draw a volley at fifty yards or so (outside the easy-to-get-hits range), then charge. The sheer shock of seeing something that audiacious, and the complications and timing of reloading a musket of the day will mean that you have a fair chance of pulling it off. (In our world, Murphey is a dick and will find a way to screw it up most likely, but Murphey is a daemon of our world, not of Dumas's.)

Action movie worthy? Oh yeah. (I believe the soldiers fired at closer range, but this example of Musketeer badassery is taken from the Man in the Iron Mask movie.) Heroic? Definately. Cool? Definately.

Believable, too, for the reasons stated. Its something that one can imagine that if things "worked right" could be pulled off, but doesn't require any powers beyond that humanity can concievably muster to do.

On the other hand, having Private Joseph Donovan be able to charge a position held by an equal sized number of Germans (to the number of guys the Musketeers above charged) who armed machine guns, one of the best armies of the world at the time, and come out equally unhurt...

That's not believable.

And I don't think D&D needs to represent the literally superhuman (and capable of doing great feats with boring ease) nearly as badly as the heroic-but-(larger-than-life, yes)-human (capable of doing not quite such great feats but being awesome in doing so.).

Orion: An alternate suggestion. Instead of trying to make Fighters (or Monks) able to do things equal to Miracle and Wish, why not make it so that Clerics and Wizards are on a power level closer to Fighters and Monks (as in the PHB)?

For all intents and purposes, even a 5th level spell is "the impossible" by anything we can replicate via technology as of now. I'm not saying we need to cut them back THAT far, but it is an observation.

[Kuroimaken]

Hercules is actually epic level, not 20th.

As for legends that are not human to begin with: Odysseus was said to have a bow so strong that no other man but him could possibly pull its string, let alone shoot with it. Odysseus was human, and definitely NOT epic level or a spellcaster.

What we're looking for is something to suspend disbelief without aid from the supernatural. We don't have to GIVE it an explanation. At this point in the game, we have people who dodge lightning 90% of the time without (Su) abilities.

All we have to say is this: "He's so fucking badass he can shoot the moon". He doesn't need no chi or magic or any other mumbo-jumbo - he just CAN. He doesn't NEED a fucking explanation. At this point, if a Fighter wants to hurl his sword through the eye and skull of a Cyclops, he should be DAMN able to do so. Call it the extraordinary power of human belief.

[Elennsar]

Nothing about Hercules's deeds would require being either, however, that I recall.

An enormous Strength score, a very high Constitution score, and a good Wisdom score did a lot more than the "higher level" benefits (like say, increased BAB) that I recall. D&D's write up of him as a 20th level fighter/20th level barbarian is...

Hint, it starts with an S, and it ends with a D, and it isn't stud.

That's well beyond anything he ever did. And this is the freakin' son of Zeus. What he did was unquestionably meant to be superhuman.

As for Odysseus...

If he was the strongest man in Ithaca, that wouldn't necessarily take anything "not human to begin with" by any stretch of the imagination.

I would be very surprised if Hector couldn't string the bow, for instance. Odyeseus in my recollection is not by any stretch the strongest of the heroes (not counting Achilles and any other part-god heroes) at Troy. He's the canniest, yes, but not the strongest. Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds and bad epic poets, maybe, however. But I'm reasonably sure we can find stronger individuals, and "none of the suitors could!" would be a lot more impressive if the suitors were.

As for disbelief:

Yes, we do. That doesn't mean we have to formally write something up. That would be tedious and annoying.

But it should be believable that someone would be that able...and "He's a badass! He can deflect arrows with sheer manhood" is...silly.

Silly has its place. If and when we play d20 Cartoons, Wilie Coyote being able to run on clouds (so long as he doesn't look down!) is...very justified.

But silly doesn't justify "heroic fantasy" very well.

[JaronK]

You know, this has me thinking now. I apologise if I'm behind the curve, here, but it seems to me that the non-magic classes (and we've been talking about the fighter and the monk so far) basically need a way to do the impossible without the conceit of magic. Wizards and Clerics get to do the impossible. That's their shtick. Fighters don't get to, though, because for some odd reason, we pick them as the poor schmucks who have to be 'realistic.' So the goal, here (I think), is to give the fighter et al. a mechanic for doing the impossible. I wonder if allowing access to Epic feats earlier than other classes might be a way to go with this? Just a thought, that occurred to me, just now, in my head.

I'd avoid giving Epic feats, as I sort of don't want to deal with epic much at all.

But I think with Fighters and the like, what you have to do is do possible things to impossible degrees.  Dodging is possible, dodging explosions is not but Rogues do it just fine.  Likewise, shooting a long way is possible, shooting beyond all reason isn't, and that's fine for melees to do. 

Meanwhile, leave the completely nuts stuff to the casters.  Conjuring stuff out of thin air and all that.  The trick is to make sure that what the casters can do and what the noncasters can do are both equally powerful, even if they're not equally impossible.

@El:  There's nothing broken about shooting long ranges.  That's exactly the kind of stuff archers need to do when competing with Beguilers mind bending people and Dread Necromancers raising the dead.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Jaron: There is absolutely no need for archers to be able to shoot half a mile because Necromancers can raise armies of corpses.

None. Nada. Zip.

Now, to be able to hit with flawless accuracy further than most of us can see clearly (refering to you lucky bastards who aren't near sighted), that's fitting and useful.

[RobbyPants]

Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.
 

We should add this at Level 7~8.

How does this work exactly?  I'm assuming he can only move five feet if he's able to take the AoO from his current position?  This just allows for some tactical repositioning during the battle?

Tactical Genius (ex): The fighter receives an extra immediate action each turn

Array of Stunts
At 17th level the fighter gains an extra swift action each round.  This extra action can also be used as an immediate action.

Same ability one at level 7 one at level 17. I think he shuold get both of these.
This will max him out at 3 foils at level 20.

Possibly.  I don't think it's too rediculous.  I guess we'd have to see what happens with lots of swift actions if the fighter is also using ToB manuevers.

I at least propose the name change.
Stunts? What is this guy a carnival worker?

I'm fine with that.  This name came from someone else's fighter.  I know OttoTheBugbear used it, and it might have come from F&K, but I don't know.

Thank you for considering Surprise lunge btw.

No problem.  I liked the ability too.


The only thing I want to do is not go too crazy with what the fighter gets on those odd levels.  I was hoping to keep it to one ability per odd level, but I gave up on that when I added Surprise Lunge.

[Elennsar]

Robby, out of curiosity: To what extent is this project (as far as you're concerned) including "all currently out 3.5 material and what 3e material is worth updating"?

I'm not suggesting ruling something out. I just am trying to imagine without hurting my brain how many classes (prestige or otherwise) and feats there are out there, not even trying to count spells and magic items.

[JaronK]

Note that no one was actually giving Fighters powers that let them see further than other people.  In fact, doubling the range increment on a Fighter 20 would have little effect other than increased accuracy past one range increment.  Cragtop Archers do it with Binder dips for Malphas birds to spot.  Clerics use Chain of Eyes.  A Fighter 20 can't dip, so it's a lot harder to pull off.

And yes, if the other classes are doing things like raising the dead at level 20, then melees should do things of equivalent power at level 20 too.  Doing tons of damage, breaking through walls with their bare hands, shooting incredibly far... these are reasonable things by comparison.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

You know, this could be one of those YMMV things, but I'm almost never in a situation as a player or a DM where I run into encounters two miles away.  Even if my PC could shoot that far, I so seldom get the chance.  Things like forests, mountains, buildings, and tunnel walls all seem to get in the way.

I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[Elennsar]

Not really, no. Raising the dead (in our world) is literally impossible...unless one counts Jesus.

I'm not sure that being able to raise an army of ten thousand zombies, each of which is an absolutely abysmal CR at this level, is really that worrisome.

I mean hell, 300 Spartans and six thousand odd other Greeks killed twenty thousand out of a quarter million Persians or so.

I'm reasonably sure that a "larger than life" set of the Three Hundred (as distinct from the 300, refering to the movie) would return ten thousand zombies to their graves without having to be over tenth level.

[RobbyPants]

Robby, out of curiosity: To what extent is this project (as far as you're concerned) includign "all currently out 3.5 material and what 3e material is worth updating"?

I'm not suggesting ruling something out. I just am trying to imagine without hurting my brain how many classes (prestige or otherwise) and feats there are out there, not even trying to count spells and magic items.

Well, at this point, I'd leave the bulk of PrCs out.  In the last big thread, there was half a dozen pages discussing full-casting PrCs and what to do about them.  At this point, I'm not going to worry too much about it.  We can always discuss it in the Other Classes thread if needed.

I figured I'd tackle Core, keeping other popular classes and feats in mind. Even though Leap Attack isn't core, it's still worth noting when designing the fighter and barbarian.

I don't own all the 3.5 books, so my personal interest only extends to what I own.  I can't really contribute to a conversation about things I don't know anything about.  That doesn't mean others can't discuss them though.

[Elennsar]

::nods.:: Just checking, because it'd be nice to know what classes we're working on getting right (whatever that entails). Once that's done, everything will be adjusted to line up with that.

[Midnight_v]

Hey. Anybody wanna change focus? We could tackle the cleric... course it may just be the spells.

What else... The ranger. I'd be nice to get that done. So we've so far given full compaion progression? What esle?

[Elennsar]

have to take a special mount but aren't gimped for ignoring it.

[Orion]

But I think with Fighters and the like, what you have to do is do possible things to impossible degrees. 

Yes! That's it exactly. Well put. It has to be things that are sorta kinda possible, but way beyond probable. I think we can learn a thing or two from some of the less fantastical wuxia films, too. Those people do absolutely ridiculous stuff, firing bows for miles or punching through stone, but it's not flash-bang/special-effects stuff. It's more "Oh sweet jesus, that's ridiculous" kind of stuff.

Hey. Anybody wanna change focus?

Uh... no? Changing focus when we're not even done one class is not a good idea. We'll be stuck in "R&D" forever. We need to actually keep focus, design a class to general (but not universal) satisfaction, and then move on to the next. Flitting from one class to another is not helpful. We don't have enough people really participating to be able to do three or four classes at once, and a single thread for even just the base classes will get seriously clogged up if we try. Just my two cents, having been in exactly this kind of situation before, for many years. If you don't retain focus, you get nothing done.