Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 251346 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1100 on: November 06, 2008, 05:27:22 PM »
I personally don't think Medium creatures should be able to grapple creatures larger than Huge ever. How large is Huge, like... 15ft or something. Honestly a medium creature grappling something like that is already getting fantastical. If you want to grapple things bigger than that you better have a magic item that can make you yourself bigger. You just can't feasibly hold onto something that's twice your size, it's not a matter of strength anymore, but of leverage and reach, etc.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1101 on: November 06, 2008, 05:33:37 PM »
Ah, but this is heroic fantasy, where a sufficiently high level human can do anything.

If we accept that at all, Grappling should not be an exception.

Not that I disagree, but I don't see the point of "you can have more hit points than a great wyrm but not grapple it".

It feels like phony realism.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1102 on: November 06, 2008, 06:57:39 PM »
So... hows it coming guys?
Slowly but surely.  I've been a lot more busy since my daughter was born two weeks ago.

That being said, I posted a tenative barbarian proression (in the spoiler below).  I think it can use a few tweaks (particularly higher level abilities), and the rage ability seems a bit front-loaded.

Barbarian:
[spoiler]
1   Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/encounter
2   Uncanny dodge
3   Trap sense +1, Rage (Mettle)
4   Rage +2 rounds
5   Improved uncanny dodge
6   Trap sense +2, PounceRage (Damage Reduction)
8   Rage +4 roundsGreater rage
12  Rage +6 roundsRage (Improved Mettle)Rage +8 roundsMighty rage, Rage +10 rounds



Rage: Per the PHB with the following exceptions: the barbarian can use rage once per encounter instead of per day.  Instead of gaining a +4 bonus on Constitution, the barbarian instead gainst a +2 morale bonus on Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to double his hit dice.

The moral bonus to fortitude saves increases to +3 at 11th level when the barbarian gains Greater Rage and to +4 at 20th level when he gains Mighty Rage.  His temporary hit points increase to triple his hit dice at 11th level and four times his hit dice at 20th level.

As the barbarian gains levels, the duration of his rage increases.  Every four levels, his rage lasts two rounds longer.

Rage (Mettle): At 3rd level, the barbarian gains Mettle when he is raging.

Pounce: At 6th level, the barbarian gains Pounce.

Rage (Damage Reduction): At 7th level, the damage reduction gained from barabrian class levels is doubled while raging.

Rage (Improved Mettle): At 15th level, when the barbarian is raging, he gains Improved Mettle.  This works exactly like Mettle, except on a failed save, he only takes the partial effects instead of the full effects of the spell or ability.[/spoiler]


I also modified the fighter slightly, so I could make a swashbuckler ACF for it.  Both of those are on the first page of this thread.
Interesting... okay as the guy who co-wrote the Consolidate Barbarian handbook this is of special interest to me.
I see you're trying to keep it close to the base build.
Suggested changes
Perhaps if you replace trap sense with "trap smasher" acf from city scape.
Scent at whatever level it appears on the warblade list.
I like the rage improvements but I wonder if its enough.
Do you rember the old 2nd edtion dwarven battlerager? They're rage gave all sorts of immunities as it went on.

One big one is
"Immunity to mind altering effects while raging" add at the level of your choosing
basically that +2 to will saves while raging needs to scale into immunity one set of effects at a time.

Secondly stack some immunities to "things that impede movement"
Ignore to difficult terrain
Ignore magical effects that would impede movement "cloud effects, force cage." at high levels.
Maybe a climb speed

I also like the "Taunt" ability on a barbarian. "beligerence" but thats a different thing entirely, perhaps from what you have thus far.

Long story short allow hime to become more and more immune to various things that keep him from being able to get to the delivery point of his sword.

Quote
I personally don't think Medium creatures should be able to grapple creatures larger than Huge ever Honestly a medium creature grappling something like that is already getting fantastical
You basically just climb on him like when wolverine or spiderman fight the hulk or juggernaught. You're all on thier back using skill instead of strength.
...
now that you mention it allow barbraians to ignore size bonuses to grapple checks out right.

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1103 on: November 06, 2008, 07:01:46 PM »
Climbing on someone and  fighting them while on top of them would still allow for using a greatsword to hack pieces off them.

It'd be a reasonably good skill for a barbarian.

But it wouldn't mean he could grapple the dragon.

As for barbarians and immunity to things impeding them: Well, how do people who use X to impede enemies survive barbarians, then?

Let's say barbarians could ignore the fact reach weapons extend someone's AOO range. That really sucks for reach weapon users.

Not quite as bad if it is general "environmental", but something to keep in mind, still. "Unstoppable force" against anything less than "immovable object" is unfair to the defender.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1104 on: November 06, 2008, 07:22:56 PM »
Elennsar: I think he meant more like Solid Fog and Entangle than reach weapons.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1105 on: November 06, 2008, 07:24:57 PM »
Perhaps if you replace trap sense with "trap smasher" acf from city scape.
I don't have Cityscape, so I'm not sure what it does.  Just reading the name, it sounds like it fits better.


Scent at whatever level it appears on the warblade list.
Scent is cool.  I'd think somewhere around levels 2-5 would be fine.


Do you rember the old 2nd edtion dwarven battlerager? They're rage gave all sorts of immunities as it went on.

One big one is
"Immunity to mind altering effects while raging" add at the level of your choosing
basically that +2 to will saves while raging needs to scale into immunity one set of effects at a time.
I was toying with immunity to fear while raging.  All mind-affecting spells and abilities makes perfect sense really.  The guy's too pissed to be persuaded, scared, or fooled by illusions.


Secondly stack some immunities to "things that impede movement"
Ignore to difficult terrain
Ignore magical effects that would impede movement "cloud effects, force cage." at high levels.
Maybe a climb speed
I like the difficult terrain part.  I'm a bit iffy on force cage.  Although, if we redo that spell, I might conisder having a break DC of some sort.  Perhaps it has so many HP (replenished each round) and a hardness, and it can be broken.

As for clouds, and other movement impeding effects, perhaps anything that reduces the barbarian's speed to 1/2 has no effect while raging (at some particular level).  This makes things like Grease, Entangle, and Black Tenticles less scary to him.


I also like the "Taunt" ability on a barbarian. "beligerence" but thats a different thing entirely, perhaps from what you have thus far.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1106 on: November 06, 2008, 07:26:58 PM »
I know, but its an example of something that you could come up with a way for a character to negate that would leave those who use that unfairly disadvantaged.

Like something that would make it possibly to reliably make attacks as touch attacks.

"I laugh at cover!" for a Master Archer sounds reasonable...until you realize that those who use cover just got kicked in the nuts.

So I hope that the Barbarian doesn't get anything like that.

Robby: Definate seconding on Force cage. "Force=invulnerable" is bizzare.

Not sure on the other stuff. Not arguing, just...see the above on not wanting to make the barbarian whallop people too easily.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1107 on: November 06, 2008, 07:29:59 PM »
1. You're not listening I said "magical" effects. So really I find your reach weapon argument irrelavant.
2. Okay so with the :
"Unstoppable force" against anything less than "immovable object" is unfair to the defender. Frankly, its currently the immovable objects that win. So I don't think fairness is the problem there when barbarians have one option, and casters have many many options.

3.  How how do people who use X to impede enemies survive barbarians, then?
Basically you use something other than "God" spells AoE "you're not going anywhere spells"
Debuffs, flight, illusions Summoned interferance... Just not the easy out that it is now.

On grapple. I don't think we're talking the same thing.
I'm talking Comic book stuff here which is where you end up, or mythological stuff "Hercules" and the such.

Climbing on someone stabbing = just a decription of the grapple check.
Still just a grapple check.
I mean its just like real life but you character class gives you super powers so you know I could grapple a dragon, pry its jaws apart until they snap.
I'm am a fucking super hero after all...

Edit.
The sheer options of casters keep them able to deal with everything one way or the other.
I don't want the barbs to be invincible to all magicall effects we can parse down what excactly afterward right now I'm just blotting note about things that dont' work vs' warrior types, I mean works too good.
Fighters have foil for such things
Barbs need to be able to muscle down or overpower shit.

There's already a "I laugh at cover master archer" frankly thats the benifit of being a 20th level master archer.
Besides if you're unlucky enough to run into that guy and you schickt is "I use cover" well
welcome to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"
I mean there's always someone somewhere who has your number.
We want to reduce that number, but it'll aways be there.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 07:35:29 PM by Midnight_v »
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bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1108 on: November 06, 2008, 07:36:31 PM »
You basically just climb on him like when wolverine or spiderman fight the hulk or juggernaught. You're all on thier back using skill instead of strength.

That's not grappling. That's called the Giantbane feat, and when it works, yeah, it's awesome. You just can't hold on to creatures that are too big for you. It's physically impossible. If you want to grapple something more than 1 or 2 sizes bigger than you you need to enlarge yourself.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1109 on: November 06, 2008, 07:40:43 PM »
Midnight: It was an example of a "let's not have this kind of thing happen", not "you suggested and I say that's bad".

Quote
Basically you use something other than "God" spells AoE "you're not going anywhere spells"
Debuffs, flight, illusions Summoned interferance... Just not the easy out that it is now.

Point being, if the barbarian can counter any "impedement", you rapidly find yourself running into "either I have to beat him directly (deal overwhelming damage) or outrun him" (including "use some mobility form I can't counter to get away).

And snice "I do overwhelming damage" is his shtick...barbarians can get overpowered. Particularly since "can't be impeded" removes a lot of the things that make him less adaptible.

As for the Master Archer and cover...the problem is that it means that the Master Archer has an unfair advantage over "I can make maximium use of cover".

Now, if the Master Archer by design is meant to deal with that as in rock-paper-scissors, that isn't so bad, but if that's the goal, it needs to be spelled out so that there are things that pwn the Master Archer the way he does the things he pwns.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1110 on: November 06, 2008, 07:42:34 PM »
"I pick rock."
"I pick paper."
"No fair!"

bk: Then we reflavor and rerule grapple to include things like that.

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1111 on: November 06, 2008, 07:44:34 PM »
You basically just climb on him like when wolverine or spiderman fight the hulk or juggernaught. You're all on thier back using skill instead of strength.

That's not grappling. That's called the Giantbane feat, and when it works, yeah, it's awesome. You just can't hold on to creatures that are too big for you. It's physically impossible. If you want to grapple something more than 1 or 2 sizes bigger than you you need to enlarge yourself.
I'm not liking that idea. Basically you're making it to where "Casters make the best grapplers" mostly because you're attempting to do the whole "Real world physics in D&D"
That being the case pegusi, and dragons shouldn't be able to fly.
Nor should one be able to rub fur and a rod of iron and shoot a ligtning bolt.
So... you see the camp I'm in about this from my point I'm sure.
I've had this argument with people about the physics of busterswords and how "Magic is different".
...
If you're agrument is really "it's physically impossible" and you stand by that consistently then I'm sure that you've encounterd this line of thinking before.
We're unlikely thus to sway each other. :(
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1112 on: November 06, 2008, 07:46:06 PM »
Midnight: If there's some way that you can "grapple" someone despite being far too small to do any of the things that "grappling" requires, I'd love to hear it.

No one is arguing against "I climb on the colossal being and whack at it with my greatsword", but that's not grappling.
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veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1113 on: November 06, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »
Midnight: If there's some way that you can "grapple" someone despite being far too small to do any of the things that "grappling" requires, I'd love to hear it.

No one is arguing against "I climb on the colossal being and whack at it with my greatsword", but that's not grappling.

We make grappling include it, it's exactly what epic and superheroic grappling is for.
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1114 on: November 06, 2008, 07:54:00 PM »
I'm not sure it fits to have Grappling (as in what two grapplers here on Terra do) and grappling as in I-climb-on-you be related.

What do they have in common?
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1115 on: November 06, 2008, 07:56:21 PM »
Midnight: It was an example of a "let's not have this kind of thing happen", not "you suggested and I say that's bad".

Quote
Basically you use something other than "God" spells AoE "you're not going anywhere spells"
Debuffs, flight, illusions Summoned interferance... Just not the easy out that it is now.

Point being, if the barbarian can counter any "impedement", you rapidly find yourself running into "either I have to beat him directly (deal overwhelming damage) or outrun him" (including "use some mobility form I can't counter to get away).

And snice "I do overwhelming damage" is his shtick...barbarians can get overpowered. Particularly since "can't be impeded" removes a lot of the things that make him less adaptible.

As for the Master Archer and cover...the problem is that it means that the Master Archer has an unfair advantage over "I can make maximium use of cover".

Now, if the Master Archer by design is meant to deal with that as in rock-paper-scissors, that isn't so bad, but if that's the goal, it needs to be spelled out so that there are things that pwn the Master Archer the way he does the things he pwns.
Then really it was a weak example.
Point being, if the barbarian can counter any "impedement", you rapidly find yourself running into
"either I have to beat him directly (deal overwhelming damage)"
This is a huge feild of open ended things
or outrun him" (including "use some mobility form I can't counter to get away).
This is another huge field of open ended things

You forgot "I debuff him" Slow... Ray of this stat effect or that effect, imprisonment would still affect him
He's not immune to ability damage or level drain an the such.

Though all in all the rubric your debating with me ultimatly boils down to...
Wizard hose barbarian with god spells by not letting him fight at all.
Barbarians are an actual threat, that you can't simply ignore by saying force cage. Wall of stone.
Mist of "you're irrelavant" or whatever.

The archer thing I find pretty weak too. Things pwn what they pwn there isn't actually a huge number of people whose thing is "cover" so its again a largely irrelavant example by comparison.

Its also not congruent because the "cover opponent" apparently has no other way to deal with the archer where as the spellcaster has unlimited options... unless we do things like this to limit those options.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1116 on: November 06, 2008, 08:01:54 PM »
Midnight: If there's some way that you can "grapple" someone despite being far too small to do any of the things that "grappling" requires, I'd love to hear it.

No one is arguing against "I climb on the colossal being and whack at it with my greatsword", but that's not grappling.

We make grappling include it, it's exactly what epic and superheroic grappling is for.
Exactly. The only thing is If your grapple check is partially a reflection of your fighting ability and partially a reflection of your strength then Bab 10 Fighters with 20 str + grapple feats get to grapple Grizzly bears outright.
Basically a part of grappling is joint manipulation.
What was that game with the guy with the kukris on chains. He was grappling out all kinds of giant beast and thats kind the thing I"m talking about.
If you can't numberically, I'm cool with it.
I don't want to see "it can't be done" because of "physics".
If a superstrong tiny man grabbed your windpipe you'd probbably still black out if your stregth was inssufficent to break his grip.
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1117 on: November 06, 2008, 08:05:08 PM »
#1 Not huge enough. It all goes down to 'I do lots of damage versus hit points".

#2: It still is the "I run away, I hope I can escape" option. Lots of ways to do it, but its still only a "retreat!", not a "can I still win'.

As for debuffing and such: Debuffing wouldn't be so bad...if he had a harder time resisting it. As is, any Fort based debuffs he will laugh at, and many Will ones.

Don't think there are any Reflex ones.

As for wizard hose barbarian by "not letting him fight at all". He does get to fight. He gets a saving throw like everyone else. And its not like "bad Reflex save" if that's the problem is something that hoses him worse than the Fighter if he also has one.

As for archers: Let's see. Cover. Anything that isn't fast enough to compensate for his huge range.

That covers a lot of enemies. "I attack at a distance", assuming anything like equal power of ranged attack vs. melee attack, is an overwhelming advantage much of the time.

As for spellcasters having unlimited options: That's one thing we need to remove flat out if we want a balanced tier 3 game, as opposed to trying to make all PCs tier 1.

As for a superstrong tiny man grabbing my windpipe: Assuming he was big enough to get his hands (or whatever) around it.

This isn't about "too weak" versus "too strong". But if you can't fit your hands around my neck, you can have Strength 100 and you won't be able to crush my neck.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1118 on: November 06, 2008, 08:10:41 PM »
Quote
As for a superstrong tiny man grabbing my windpipe: Assuming he was big enough to get his hands (or whatever) around it.

This isn't about "too weak" versus "too strong". But if you can't fit your hands around my neck, you can have Strength 100 and you won't be able to crush my neck

In that case he wouldn't have to as he'd simply dig his fingers into your jugular. Okay lets talke size here.
We're talking about a man the size of my hand with a 100 strength.
. A hand strangling you would kill you vis-a-vis He's going to kill you
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1119 on: November 06, 2008, 08:12:32 PM »
The fact that he could potentially kill me is not in dispute. The fact that he wouldn't be "strangling" me (with the rules for strangling people and what you roll to strangle and what I roll to resist and so on) is.

Grappling is a specific action in game terms. Not just anything that could be called grappling by any author ever.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.