D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

My mistake. Still an action. As in, as opposed to a free action.

The problem is not just what happens when a fighter and barbarian fight, but whether or not a fighter's ability to hurt monsters (defined as someone with abilities at least in part derived by "being a minotaur" say instead of "being a 5th level fighter") is less effective.

I'm questioning here, not insisting it is weaker. But pounce ofters a great advantage versus anything that doesn't block charging entirely.

[RobbyPants]

What you're saying is that the barbarian can end the fight quicker (and in turn, save the party resources)?

That's true in a lot of fights, but by the time you get to 6th level (when the barbarian would get pounce), not as many fights are simply based on hit point attrition.  It's still a valid tactic, but it isn't as useful as it is a lower levels.  Having options to hold a foe at bay can be much more useful in some situations.

Of course, both of these are highly situational.  It depends on the opponent(s) and the environment.  Each class can do things differently.  In a simple fight, the barbarian will probably come out ahead, but I don't think that makes him that much better than the fighter.

[veekie]

The comparison here is that of a blaster wizard to a control one, I think. Pounce hurts a lot, but in a fight, stopping one or more enemies(as a fighter with reach and trip could), right now, as opposed to stopping a particular enemy several rounds earlier than normal(as pounce and high damage would do) tends to be more valuable. In the fighter scenario, said enemy is crippled, while in the barbarian one, unless the target got floored in a single round, it remains free to wreak havoc on the rest of the team. So I'd say they're about even there, probably with the edge to the fighter, what with Foil.

[Elennsar]

What you're saying is that the barbarian can end the fight quicker (and in turn, save the party resources)?
...
Each class can do things differently.  In a simple fight, the barbarian will probably come out ahead, but I don't think that makes him that much better than the fighter.

First: Yes. If the barbarian does 80 damage in one round, and the monster has 120 hit points, the monster is two thirds dead just by the barbarian's efforts. Poor monster.

If there's a roughly equal mixture of "simple" and "complex" fights, yes. If not, no. And its not like the Barbarian can't trip, grapple, disarm, etc. The Fighter may be better, but not necessarily by enough to have an equally major advantage (overall) in those areas to the barbarian's advantage here.

Naturally, the question comes about how a barbarian/fighter would do, but that's another balance issue...its the balance of multiclassing versus single classing rather than one class versus another.

[RobbyPants]

If there's a roughly equal mixture of "simple" and "complex" fights, yes. If not, no. And its not like the Barbarian can't trip, grapple, disarm, etc. The Fighter may be better, but not necessarily by enough to have an equally major advantage (overall) in those areas to the barbarian's advantage here.

Well, you're right that a barbarian can trip, disarm, etc, but one thing he's missing is Foil.  Agaisnt another melee character, that's a chance to negate an attack each round.  Against a caster, it's a chance to stop him from casting all together (well, until Quickened spells come into play).

Naturally, the question comes about how a barbarian/fighter would do, but that's another balance issue...its the balance of multiclassing versus single classing rather than one class versus another.

As it's printed, I think the barbarian has a solid exit point at 6th level.  It's no longer a "dip", but if you're main goal is to keep your BAB up over your entire build, I can see a lot of people still investing all 6 levels to get Pounce.  With Rage now being per encounter, it makes the 1st level of barbarian pretty attractive too.  Mettle at 3rd level while raging is also a solid boost.  Because of this, I see Barbarian 6/Fighter 14 as stronger than Barbarian 20.  Improved Mettle is nice, but the Fighter gets Shake it Off and True Grit to compensate.

[Kuroimaken]

Bottom line, I believe, is that they have different approaches (and one isn't necessarily better than the other). I don't seriously think Pounce shifts this balance either way.

Also remember that the real change Pounce brings numerically is when you charge. It is a situational bonus at best, unless you can consistently charge time and again.

[RobbyPants]

Are we fairly happy with the current progression (at least for the time being)?

[Kuroimaken]

I know I am.

By the way, does the Fighter have some sort of ability to consider himself one size cathegory larger for tripping/grappling and whatnot? Otherwise all those bonuses will do him no good at all.

[RobbyPants]

One size larger on most of those rolls is a +4 bonus.  The fighter gets Art of War, which adds a 1/3 of his level to said rolls.  So, I guess by level 12 he does.  By level 15, he's surpassed that.

[Elennsar]

Because of this, I see Barbarian 6/Fighter 14 as stronger than Barbarian 20.  Improved Mettle is nice, but the Fighter gets Shake it Off and True Grit to compensate.

Since multiclassing is not limited by "uneven levels" now or anything else apparently, unless you want Barbarian 20 to be a bad choice (which seems to be the wrong goal for a rebalancing project), this is a bad thing, Robby.

Otherwise, in general, we're good. Everything looks interesting, which is nice.

Just a matter of how things balance out in terms of comparing the classes. In terms of "is being a Barbarian X useful versus CR X things", we are in pretty good shape.

[RobbyPants]

We might need a capstone other than Mighty Rage.  Something else in the early to mid teens too.

Improved Mettle while raging is nice, but like I said earlier, Barb 6/Fighter 14 can probably compensate with Shake it Off and True Grit.

[Elennsar]

Not just that, but assuming that Barbarian 20 is supposed to be perfectly valid, a reason to go all the way there without pause (but not to make it so that failing to do so just plain sucks?).

Hmmm. Tough one.

[Kuroimaken]

One size larger on most of those rolls is a +4 bonus.  The fighter gets Art of War, which adds a 1/3 of his level to said rolls.  So, I guess by level 12 he does.  By level 15, he's surpassed that.

I actually meant as in being able to trip/grapple someone larger than two cathegories than you are.

Remember, you can't do either if they're more than two size cathegories bigger than you.

[RobbyPants]

Good point.

Perhaps that too, could be worked into Art of War.

Maybe you're treated as one size larger at level 6, two sizes larger at level 12, and three sizes larger at level 18, for purposes of determining how large a creature you can grapple/trip.

The numbers could be tweaked a bit, but I'm not sure how often a medium fighter is going to be grappling a gargantuan monster before level 6.  Thoughts?

Also, the monk rework we did has an identical ability called Combat Insight.  Should that too get the same bonus?  It seems pretty important for the class at higher levels.

[Kuroimaken]

Considering that the monk is probably going to rely on that more than the Fighter wuld, I suppose he could get the same boost.

I wouldn't give him three size increases, though. I just can't picture a human-sized Fighter grappling anything more than the pinky of a dragon...

[RobbyPants]

I guess it's a matter of what we want PCs to be capable of at levels 15+.

As it stands, a medium creature can grapple someone of large size or smaller.  How big of a creature should they be able to grapple?  Huge and smaller?  Gargantuan or smaller?  If we limit it to huge, then we just need to give a single size boost at some point.  What level is that appropriate?

[Elennsar]

Well, when should a Huge creature be something you can feel (reasonably) confident in facing in a direct fight?

Personally, I'd say at least 10 but without gaming experience past that level, I cannot say exactly where.

Closer to 15 than 20, though.

[Kuroimaken]

I guess it's a matter of what we want PCs to be capable of at levels 15+.

As it stands, a medium creature can grapple someone of large size or smaller.  How big of a creature should they be able to grapple?  Huge and smaller?  Gargantuan or smaller?  If we limit it to huge, then we just need to give a single size boost at some point.  What level is that appropriate?

Well, let's think about it for a bit.

At the lowest levels, almost anything large-sized is a serious threat to PCs. Past, say, level 6 or 7, you should be reasonably confident you can take on a large creature, so you move on to Huge monsters (particularly some giant species). Around level 12, maybe 10 at the earliest those are already a walk in the park, so gargantuan creatures become more of a threat (but not as much as the previous Large->Huge increase). Gargantuan is probably a good cut-off point, since chances are Colossal creatures and up are likely bosses until you hit epic.

[Midnight_v]

So... hows it coming guys?

[RobbyPants]

So... hows it coming guys?

Slowly but surely.  I've been a lot more busy since my daughter was born two weeks ago.

That being said, I posted a tenative barbarian proression (in the spoiler below).  I think it can use a few tweaks (particularly higher level abilities), and the rage ability seems a bit front-loaded.

Barbarian:
[spoiler]

1   Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/encounter
2   Uncanny dodge
3   Trap sense +1, Rage (Mettle)
4   Rage +2 rounds
5   Improved uncanny dodge
6   Trap sense +2, PounceRage (Damage Reduction)
8   Rage +4 roundsGreater rage
12  Rage +6 roundsRage (Improved Mettle)Rage +8 roundsMighty rage, Rage +10 rounds

Rage: Per the PHB with the following exceptions: the barbarian can use rage once per encounter instead of per day.  Instead of gaining a +4 bonus on Constitution, the barbarian instead gainst a +2 morale bonus on Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to double his hit dice.

The moral bonus to fortitude saves increases to +3 at 11th level when the barbarian gains Greater Rage and to +4 at 20th level when he gains Mighty Rage.  His temporary hit points increase to triple his hit dice at 11th level and four times his hit dice at 20th level.

As the barbarian gains levels, the duration of his rage increases.  Every four levels, his rage lasts two rounds longer.

Rage (Mettle): At 3rd level, the barbarian gains Mettle when he is raging.

Pounce: At 6th level, the barbarian gains Pounce.

Rage (Damage Reduction): At 7th level, the damage reduction gained from barabrian class levels is doubled while raging.

Rage (Improved Mettle): At 15th level, when the barbarian is raging, he gains Improved Mettle.  This works exactly like Mettle, except on a failed save, he only takes the partial effects instead of the full effects of the spell or ability.[/spoiler]


I also modified the fighter slightly, so I could make a swashbuckler ACF for it.  Both of those are on the first page of this thread.