Author Topic: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?  (Read 18441 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2010, 07:03:06 PM »
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Zaxter

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Like what? And are they the best spells at least in part because they ignore SR, or is that just an added bonus? If the former, then my point stands.

SR sucks because the best spells have a range of Personal.
On the other hand, +1 to this. No amount of SR will protect you from Shapechange.

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2010, 07:25:02 PM »
God fucking damnit.

Hey you. Fucking fucker. Do you, or do you not cast this spell on non arcane spellcasters? Why or why not? And why don't you, even though it's also Int 1 and will do so regardless of the amount of Int the enemy actually has? Don't say 'it has a save' - your chances are about the same feebleminding a brute as they are getting 4 rays to all hit and produce average or better results, assuming that the feeblemind isn't more accurate (it likely is). Feeblemind is also lower level, and does not require two feats.

The answer of course is you don't, because that line of thought is retarded.

Shivering Touch on the other hand works well on anything big. Some of these are stupid brutes that don't deserve their CR. Others very much do. Dragons, for example. And there's fewer defenses against melee touch than ranged touch. Not to mention 3d6 means a lot more than 1d4 in CEF.

I don't, because it has 0 chance of reducing Int to 0, whereas what Feeblemind does is basically the worst-case-scenario of "Oh shit, I guess the spell wasn't as effective as I'd hoped" with a metamagic'd Ray of Stupidity.

And, yeah, Shivering Touch works well on anything big. Your fucking point? Selectively nerfing spells sends a message to about 5 people in the Universe, and all of them have analyzed the game enough to realize that stupid brutes aren't often worth their CRs. What's so hard to grasp about that, that I've had to explain it three or four times now? Are you just incapable of basic reading comprehension, or are you actually this stupid?

Or are we actually arguing now that your selective nerfs are for balance reasons, instead of sending a message to players? If that's the case, fine by me. You're not done rewriting all the rules yet, so it's not exactly fair to have a shitstorm over a single rule that really ought to be judged in the larger context of the game, which is the point you should have been making all this goddamn time, dumbass.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2010, 07:43:48 PM »
The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0
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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2010, 07:51:39 PM »
The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0

You make a good point! That quote on my part was a bit of hyperbole. If your DM doesn't play dragons as very intelligent to begin with, it won't make much difference one way or the other (and, in all fairness, that doesn't necessarily make a Bad DM).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2010, 07:58:36 PM »
not trying to be mean here, but this is too funny ...


X_______  practices his shouting and smiting by screaming at himself in the mirror.


 :lmao
... and it could be "targeted" at just about anyone.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 08:02:30 PM by awaken DM golem »

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2010, 08:03:09 PM »
not trying to be mean here, but this is too funny ...
X_______  practices his shouting and smiting by screaming at himself in the mirror.
:lmao
... and it could be "targeted" at just about anyone.

It's a shame he always overcomes the mirror's SR.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2010, 08:04:34 PM »

IQ of Dragons = DM IQ - DM Mercy
DM Mercy = (Party Tier Average) * (0 </= DM Kindness* </= 10)

*If DM Sadism >0, DM Kindness = 0

 :lol ... and a 4th Edition Homer, would argue with this just because he thinks the rules don't matter.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2010, 11:37:06 PM »
While this is out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like?  

Peace,
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 11:52:32 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2010, 11:44:53 PM »
While this out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like? 

Peace,
Necro

Honestly? 4E's Defense system comes fairly close (though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »
While this out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like? 

Peace,
Necro

First, you don't want to fall off the RNG in either direction...stay within a 20%-80% success rate at any given level.
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raith0

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2010, 08:44:48 AM »
while the 4ed defense system is close it still needs a lot of work,  the whole system is based on stat mod and nothing more since attack and defense scale equaly

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2010, 09:09:09 AM »
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
Like what? And are they the best spells at least in part because they ignore SR, or is that just an added bonus? If the former, then my point stands.

Added bonus. For example Black Tentacles is something you would just do to anything Large or smaller that doesn't have FoM and can't teleport, particularly when combined with Solid Fog and/or persistent damage effects. The fact it works just as well even if the enemy has SR is a nice little bonus, but SR is so easily trivialized it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

The same could be said of any other Conjuration: Creation effect. You're using it because the Conjuration school is awesome. And maybe to mock some gimp that thinks anti magic fields actually bother mages, instead of just making them hold up a sign saying "Aim your orbs here!"

The only way SR would be relevant is if you encountered (level + 25) SR at the absolute minimum, and even then all that would do is fuck over Evokers and Necromancers, while no one else cares. And even the Evokers and Necromancers can get themselves back to auto pass level rather easily.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2010, 05:28:41 AM »
While this is out in theory land, I just got to ask, so what would a balanced and meaningful SR-type mechanic look like?  

Peace,
Necro
Yay for not reading even 1 page back. w.e I've stopped with the thread.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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[/Spoiler]

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Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2010, 01:59:20 AM »
This thread got me thinking about creating a new mechanic called Arcane Defiance, not as a replacement for SR but as an alternative. You can check it out here, feedback welcome.  

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:02:04 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

AndyJames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2010, 03:13:13 AM »
As a member of a party where I am the only arcane caster and serious caster of any stripe (the other two were an Ogre Fighter/Kensai and a Rogue/Cleric) and I was a Wizard/Druid/MT/AH, I can categorically say that Grease shuts down golems faster than you can say SR FAIL!

We got into an arena fight At level about 10-ish with 1 Wizard, 1 Fighter and about 4-6 Flesh Golems (it was the final fight in a tournament, and it was SUPPOSED to be hard). First round, Haste. Second round, Dominate Person on the enemy Fighter (enemy Wizard was turned into a pincushion by a "bow which launches trees", or so the Ogre claimed; I saw no reason to contradict him...). Third to fifth round, Grease.

Sit back, relax, and let the TWO Fighters do their job. The Rogue/Cleric was just quietly weeping in the corner.

SR is silly because every caster I have ever played ALWAYS as an alternative plan in mind for creatures with either immunities or SR he cannot reliably penetrate. The AH above would Animal Growth his Companion Familiar (a Brown Bear), and let it do the whole grapple routine. Plus he would be Hasting and playing havoc with Grease (which was used throughout the entire campaign from Level 1 to Level 22) and other stuff. Polymorph Any Object became a staple when it was available (polymorph the ground under the platemail clad Cleric into a 5ft wide, 20ft deep smooth metal test-tube filled with water = dead cleric; no save, no SR. Cover it with a Shrink Item'd boulder for bonus points). I have never played a caster character who took the Spell Penetration feat. There is simply no reason to.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2010, 02:14:19 PM »
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2010, 02:19:50 PM »
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.
That and as someone said about 3.0 DR/SR: "it is really just a pissing contest between outsiders. Because actual players will just ignore it by using something else."
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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2010, 02:20:18 PM »
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

Agreed. And I see what you did there.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2010, 02:33:28 PM »
Grease is a party buff. :lmao

Anyways, I think the consensus at this point is that the purpose of Spell Resistance is to delude the gullible into thinking casters are not living gods.

Agreed. And I see what you did there.

 :devil
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]