Author Topic: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?  (Read 18438 times)

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Vistella

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2010, 03:27:12 PM »
you can bring twin down to +1 and then the twinned split ray ray of stupidity is a lvl4 spell

its even possible to make a lvl2 spell out of it with the right feats
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 03:31:49 PM by Vistella »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
Not that I haven't been enjoying this thread, SF gave me several laughs, but the point is to give a 'must be this tall to ride' sign to casters. The problem is all the SR 'no' spells and the ways to buff CL or reduce SR. Simple solution?

Make all spells allow SR.
Double or triple all SR entries.
Allow option to have beneficial spells penetrate SR.

Does this do funny things like not interacting with magically created surfaces? Yes. Is this hilarious and a giant fuck you to casters? Yes, unless they really optimize.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2010, 04:18:20 PM »
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...

Why, exactly, can't it be reduced by more than 1? I'm given to understand that stacking metamagic reducers was kind of a thing around these boards. Incantatrix + Arcane Thesis (a feat being easily worth it in order to destroy anything that isn't immune to Mind-Affecting Spells) would, if memory serves, easily drop it down to +1 level each, given the most conservative interpretation of metamagic reducers (that they can't reduce the cost below +1).

But that's really not the entire point. Anyone who doesn't already grasp what the problem is with low-Int, high-damage monsters is not going to see Ray of Stupidity and realize that such monsters are easily defeated and thus not worth their CRs, they're going to decide that Ray of Stupidity is broken and houserule it and complain about it on the Internet somewhere.

EDIT: Unless your houserules say you can't reduce metamagic more than once. Then ignore the first paragraph; I haven't read through all the houserules you've set up yet, sorry about that.

Yes, it's assumed when I present houserules and say that they are meant to be used together that when discussing them they are indeed being used together.

Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.
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wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2010, 05:07:02 PM »
in a similar vein ... DR x/magic is completely worthless, as well.  but it does serve the purpose of keeping a field of 1st-level archers from taking down a Great Wyrm.

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2010, 05:41:10 PM »
in a similar vein ... DR x/magic is completely worthless, as well.  but it does serve the purpose of keeping a field of 1st-level archers from taking down a Great Wyrm.

Well the only reason that exists is as a pale shadow of DR x/+y which itself is a pale shadow of only damaged by +x or better weapons. Seems like a melee buff, but since they don't do enough all it really does is trick the gullible into thinking melee characters got better, when in fact they still can't hit enemies hard enough to make them care without optimizing.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2010, 09:57:08 PM »
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 10:02:19 PM by Bauglir »
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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2010, 09:59:14 PM »
The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying to, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

I see what you did there, Mr. Cooke.
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Zaxter

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2010, 10:28:58 PM »
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

raith0

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2010, 11:19:53 PM »
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2010, 11:44:32 PM »
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2010, 01:43:33 AM »
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.

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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
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raith0

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2010, 08:44:19 AM »
Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

because its not often that it actually causes you to give up rescources for just the fact of over coming it.  so many spells are based on caster level so increasing it as high as possible is the goal and making most SRs the is done without spending resources or "wasting" actions
I think you'd have to have your CL constantly boosted by at least 5 or more (to be generous -- 10 is probably more accurate) to be able to trivialize SR that way. You rarely see casters getting more than +3 pre-epic (Orange Ioun Stone + that ring whose name I can't remember + Craft Magic Tattoo). That's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to beating SR, and if you boost it much more than that then you're probably in the more theoretical realm of optimization anyway.

Red Wizard of Thay is TO now?

or master specialist? Draconic Aura? IOT7FV ?  wow by that train of thought Elemental Savant becomes TO then too

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2010, 09:49:55 AM »
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

God fucking damnit, stop being an idiot and learn to read the entire post, not just a small part of it.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2010, 09:53:19 AM »
Not that I haven't been enjoying this thread, SF gave me several laughs, but the point is to give a 'must be this tall to ride' sign to casters. The problem is all the SR 'no' spells and the ways to buff CL or reduce SR. Simple solution?

Make all spells allow SR.
Double or triple all SR entries.
Allow option to have beneficial spells penetrate SR.

Does this do funny things like not interacting with magically created surfaces? Yes. Is this hilarious and a giant fuck you to casters? Yes, unless they really optimize.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
must... sig... this

No, that's retarded and you should feel retarded.

Despite the OP's opinion, I say that SR has its uses. Acquiring methods to bypass SR consumes resources. Applying them often consumes actions. We all know the value of both of these, so why is an ability that's forcing you to give them up "a waste?"

Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Zaxter

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2010, 10:35:07 AM »
Red Wizard of Thay is TO now?
Forgot that that increases CL until I checked just now, I've never seen it in actual use. It does come at a cost (banning an extra school), though the consensus on these boards seems to be that such a cost is marginal (makes me want to see how someone deals with a Focused Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix who's had to drop 5 schools :p). However if you're referring to the trick where you use Leadership to grab +20 caster level every day, then yes, that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

or master specialist? Draconic Aura? IOT7FV ?  wow by that train of thought Elemental Savant becomes TO then too
Master Specialist only increases CL for one school of magic, and I don't know what Draconic Aura does. As for IOt7FV and Elemental Savant, they don't increase CL, I don't know why you mentioned them.

Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2010, 10:39:00 AM »
Nope. Shutting down SR is even easier than shutting down Fighters, and it comes up more often at that. Not all of the methods use resources or actions.
Such as? If you're referring to picking spells that ignore SR (e.g. Orb of X), then chances are you've picked a spell specifically for overcoming SR rather than some other option, thus expending resources.

Bzzt! Most of the best spells ignore SR as a matter of course.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2010, 11:55:24 AM »
Which means it works in exactly the manner I described, where doing that means 2 feats and an 8th level spell. By the way, 8th level spells grant categorical immunity to mind affecting and 4th level spells provide categorical immunity to rays. There's also miss chances, mirror image, and just high touch AC. Getting it down to 6th requires more feats and/or class features. It can't go lower.

And the real takeaway point here is that if you can't instant stat 0 them, you can just be flying as a matter of course and they can't touch you, or whatever. So no matter what, they aren't level appropriate. The Ray of Stupidity just makes it obvious.

Dude, you know as well as I do that D&D effectiveness isn't measured in terms of what PCs can do to each other, but in terms of how well they contribute to actual combats. Some of them will be against spellcasters capable of casting Mind Blank and Ray Deflection, but who gives a shit about them? Ray of Stupidity was already worthless against them, which makes that kind of a strawman. All I'm saying is that killing most encounters is worth a 6th level slot for each one and a feat, and if your DM is any good 10 points of Int damage will end an encounter against anything who isn't immune to it. Even if it doesn't insta-0 them, their tactics suddenly suck various types of balls.

The real takeaway point, though, is that Ray of Stupidity won't make it obvious to anybody who didn't already find it obvious, so there's no point in leaving it an exception unless you're trying, "to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one cardspell is better than the other."

God fucking damnit, stop being an idiot and learn to read the entire post, not just a small part of it.

Kindly quote the part of your post I ignored? Near as I can tell, you pointed out that spells of lower level than a metamagick'd Ray of Stupidity grant immunity to it (which is true), and then that if you don't insta-0 a bruiser-type monster there's no point. But you seem to have been ignoring every point I've made except for my failure to properly account for your changes to metamagic adjustments.

Stop being an idiot and respond to my entire posts, not just small parts of them.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2010, 04:04:53 PM »
You are still assuming all four rays hit, even though there are plenty of other means of preventing that from happening. For example, 50% miss chance vs all ranged attacks is super cheap. Miss chances and such are also cheap. Not to mention that most of the enemies that aren't casters (and therefore have awesome defenses by default) are big stupid bruisers, even if their Int happens to be 11 or better. Which means what happens is they still herp derp auto attack you, just like they would before. Which means you accomplished nothing. You're also assuming you always get average results. Thing is, like with anything else that imposes Critical Existence Failure below average rolls hurt you more than above average rolls help you. So that means when you fight the 10 Int guy, and roll a 9 collectively he's still there. And this has a slightly lower than 50% chance of happening, which, interestingly enough is a lower success rate than just using a standard save or lose against most non caster enemies.

Optimization forums. That means you have to account for Iterative Probability. Now Stop Having Fun Guys.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2010, 06:25:42 PM »
Your point being? All of those problems in landing the spell exist with the other spells you plan to nerf.

The thing about Ray of Stupidity is, if your DM isn't an animate pile of shit, dropping its Int score without hitting 0 will still have some effect on how the monster plays. If you don't think high Int is one of the (many) reasons why Dragons are badasses, you Fail At D&D about as hard as a Barbarian who thinks disintegrating anything he charges at by virtue of sheer damage puts him on par with a Wizard.

[EDIT: I do figure I need to be a bit clearer. Dropping the bastard to 1 Int means that, like before, he just charges and attacks, yes. On the other hand, it means that any tactic at all that relies on misdirection is likely to work, which basically means that if you can think in any terms other than numbers, you have Won Anyway. Not to mention that tons of monsters, while not casters, rely on special abilities (and because they're not actually casters, they don't have awesome defenses because they don't get to cherry-pick the nice spells).]

But you know what? Let's ignore that. Because, hilariously enough, the details of how the spell works aren't the point. The point you've consistently failed to address is that not nerfing Ray of Stupidity along with other ability damage spells does not, in any way, make it obvious that low Int monsters are not worth their CR. Your entire justification for treating that spell exceptionally is complete bullshit, because anybody who didn't already know that will instead declare that anything that makes it not so is broken, including Ray of Stupidity.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 06:49:25 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2010, 06:41:00 PM »
SR sucks because the best spells have a range of Personal.


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