Author Topic: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?  (Read 18445 times)

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Nunkuruji

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2010, 02:52:26 PM »
Protection from wands/scrolls/etc, making low level spellcaster mooks a non-threat, as well as non-pure spellcasters (gish, rangers, paladins, etc.)
For example, a paladin's protection from evil won't be effective against an evil outsiders SR, but a cleric's will.

I doubt they wanted to make it super effective against pure casters, seeing as how it would make the game very unfun for the non-CO T3 'I like to blast' guys.

Personally, I like to abuse it on NPC spellcasters with SR (usually drow, etc), in order to manipulate effects that will affect my PCs but not itself. My PCs never bother to pick up SR, /shrug.
Such as per the Scattering Trap thread, set the CL of the spell just under the casters own SR

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2010, 03:53:58 PM »
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.

Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.

Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: "Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where's the nearby Wizard?"

Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean "Auto-lose to illusions". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2010, 04:21:26 PM »
Lol.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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awaken DM golem

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2010, 04:27:39 PM »
4e went ahead and ditched the distinction of Saves or SR.
4e just has extra rolls of Saves.

Of course the intention is different ...
4e uses it to end effects quickly relative to 3e long lasting effects.

Re-rolls are basically a +3 or +4 depending on stuff.
If SR was "just" a reroll then blah blah boring blah happens.
Making it an extra mechanic, keeps everyone steaming about it for years ...  ;)

RobbyPants

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2010, 04:33:15 PM »
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
It's a throwback to earlier editions, where creatures would have Resist Magic x%.  Back then it was a flat percentage that didn't take the caster's level into account, and, so far as I remember, it worked on all magic.  You could probably talk your DM into blasting it with stuff propelled via Telekinesis or something, but I think those things were largely fiat.  Also, back then, I think golems had true magic immunity (other than to a handful of spells in their description, like now).

So, in 3E, they decided to add some common sense, changed the rules, and ultimately made them pointless, because clever casters just subvert them anyway.  :smirk
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RelentlessImp

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2010, 04:40:57 PM »
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
It's a throwback to earlier editions, where creatures would have Resist Magic x%.  Back then it was a flat percentage that didn't take the caster's level into account, and, so far as I remember, it worked on all magic.  You could probably talk your DM into blasting it with stuff propelled via Telekinesis or something, but I think those things were largely fiat.  Also, back then, I think golems had true magic immunity (other than to a handful of spells in their description, like now).

So, in 3E, they decided to add some common sense, changed the rules, and ultimately made them pointless, because clever casters just subvert them anyway.  :smirk

Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
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RobbyPants

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2010, 04:49:51 PM »
Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
But other than that, it was flat-out 100% immunity, right?  Like, in 3E, Melf's Acid Arrow would work because it's SR: No.  I don't think you could even use MAA in 2E and earlier.
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It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2010, 05:03:32 PM »
How did spell resistance work in 2nd? I remember ultraloths or something having 160% spell resistance.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2010, 05:38:42 PM »
How did spell resistance work in 2nd? I remember ultraloths or something having 160% spell resistance.

Answer: It assumed you were an 11th level caster. Each level higher or lower is +/- 5%. High intelligence also lowers it, or something.

Basically what this meant is low level mages ran away from anything with any amount of magic resistance, and high level mages didn't give a fuck.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Ramaloke

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2010, 05:43:35 PM »
I believe there were also spells which lowered SR just like 3.5 Assay Spell Resistance, that stacked.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2010, 05:45:54 PM »
Golems still had a few spells that affected them in 1E/2E. Like Stone Golems: rock to mud was a 50% slow for 2-12 melee rounds, mud to rock healed it to full, and stone to flesh made it vulnerable to all melee attacks (not just +2 or better weapons) on the next melee round.
But other than that, it was flat-out 100% immunity, right?  Like, in 3E, Melf's Acid Arrow would work because it's SR: No.  I don't think you could even use MAA in 2E and earlier.

They had the line "unaffected by most magic" rather than a Magic Resistance: Fuck You% entry. Their actual Magic Resistance entry was Magic Resistance: see below. So yes, it was 100%, but it wasn't adjusted via the method Sunic's outlined.

Now that I think about it, I guess it really was Fuck You%.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:47:25 PM by RelentlessImp »
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RobbyPants

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2010, 06:32:38 PM »
Yeah.  It was a flat percentage chance, not modified by the caster level in any way.  Most things had values in five percent increments between about 25% and 50% or so.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Runestar

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2010, 09:14:37 AM »
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2010, 09:26:31 AM »
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.

I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P

RelentlessImp

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2010, 01:59:54 PM »
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.


I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2010, 02:08:00 PM »
I always found it funny how iron golems could be slowed by electric jolt (a cantrip which ignores sr) despite their spell immunity. A cr13 monster stymied by a lv0 spell... :lol

Stupid enemies are never level appropriate. It's why, if I ever get to it in my houserules I'll be making sure to spell out that Shivering Touch is a penalty, and not damage and that Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty if it isn't already but Ray of Stupidity is NOT changed. Because without an easy button to instantly shut them down, some DMs might erroneously think they are still level appropriate just because the CR says they are. So Ray of Stupidity will not be nerfed to heavily discourage stupidity.

I take it your houserules are actually a reference for other DMs? Because the image of shouting at yourself for an error in CR estimation just amuses me. :P

What I mean is that they were originally written for people that know what they are doing as both my own games that some of these rules were used in and the games of the other people that added to the list are both filled with people that have sound mechanical knowledge. This in turn leads to a number of unspoken understandings between the Mister Cavern and their players.

However when publishing those rules for the use of others, it's necessary to account for the fact that things we'd all take as a given and just not do (Shivering Touch for example) are not so obvious to the people that don't already know this stuff. And since releasing houserules to anyone outside your personal gaming circle means that you are definitionally writing for people that don't already know this stuff, it is necessary to account for this as well as their expected reactions. And that means nerfing Shivering Touch to not be an auto kill against just about anything big to make it explicit that that should not happen. It also means NOT nerfing Ray of Stupidity, because stupid brutes would just get trivialized in some low resource way anyways. Ray of Stupidity just makes it clear that you should not be using stupid brutes past the first few levels. Which, interestingly enough means said creatures expire at around the same time you can reasonably afford a fully charged wand of a 2nd level spell.

In short, it's not good enough to just copy and paste. Showing your houserules to anyone else outside of your gaming group requires you to add more to them.

Also, I suspect RelentlessImp hit himself with a not nerfed Ray of Stupidity by attacking the darkness, and hitting a mirror. :P
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2010, 02:59:54 PM »
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2010, 03:17:51 PM »
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2010, 03:26:41 PM »
Wouldn't that just make Ray of Stupidity an incredibly good spell against anything, compared to other methods, because of metamagicking it? A Twinned Split Ray of Stupidity would be 4d4 points of Int damage. 10 points of Int damage, on average, will fuck with just about anything's day if it can actually take it, and that's really the bare minimum. Especially if the DM is playing monsters according to their mental ability scores. Not that you can't already do this, but deliberately ignoring one broken thing because it encourages people to game the system in a way you see as valuable is Not Good Design, especially since anybody who thinks Brutes are supposed to be serious challenges isn't likely to see a single spell as a comment on the game as a whole.

Ray of Stupidity: Level 2.

Twin Spell: +4, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

Split Ray: +2, cannot be reduced by more than 1, is not available via Sudden or Metamagic Rods.

= Level 8 spell, can be brought as low as level 6.

I am supposed to care because...

Why, exactly, can't it be reduced by more than 1? I'm given to understand that stacking metamagic reducers was kind of a thing around these boards. Incantatrix + Arcane Thesis (a feat being easily worth it in order to destroy anything that isn't immune to Mind-Affecting Spells) would, if memory serves, easily drop it down to +1 level each, given the most conservative interpretation of metamagic reducers (that they can't reduce the cost below +1).

But that's really not the entire point. Anyone who doesn't already grasp what the problem is with low-Int, high-damage monsters is not going to see Ray of Stupidity and realize that such monsters are easily defeated and thus not worth their CRs, they're going to decide that Ray of Stupidity is broken and houserule it and complain about it on the Internet somewhere.

EDIT: Unless your houserules say you can't reduce metamagic more than once. Then ignore the first paragraph; I haven't read through all the houserules you've set up yet, sorry about that.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 03:28:13 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.