Can Pun-Pun Ever Exist?

[OblivionSmurf83]

Ok, really dumb thought experiment here, inspired by the "How powerful can you build a Wizard?" thread on the TO board.

Pun-Pun achieving absolute power is obviously a threat to the entire multiverse, and everyone in it. Therefore, Pun-Pun will start to show up on COP castings by Wizards at some point. So, here are 4 questions that I'd like to put to the board:

1) At what point on his path to ascension will Pun-Pun begin to register as a threat?

2) What is the minimum time required for Pun-Pun to achieve absolute power?

3) What is the minimum amount of time required for a Wizard to detect Pun-Pun, and eliminate him, if he is detectable before achieving said power.

4) Based on the answers to the above questions, and assuming Wizards cast COP at random times, what number of Wizards would need to exist in the multiverse before Pun-Pun could no longer exist?

[RobbyPants]

Well, what is "absolute power"?  I imagine immediately after Pun Pun gets Manipulate Form, he'll probably want to become immune to the stunning effect it causes, to eliminate downtime.  After that, what order do you start picking stuff up?  If he picks up Mind Blank as a SLA next, he might be pretty hard to detect, which means if he doesn't register as a threat until he has MF, there's only a small window when he'd even show up.

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, really dumb thought experiment here, inspired by the "How powerful can you build a Wizard?" thread on the TO board.

Pun-Pun achieving absolute power is obviously a threat to the entire multiverse, and everyone in it. Therefore, Pun-Pun will start to show up on COP castings by Wizards at some point. So, here are 4 questions that I'd like to put to the board:

1) At what point on his path to ascension will Pun-Pun begin to register as a threat?

2) What is the minimum time required for Pun-Pun to achieve absolute power?

3) What is the minimum amount of time required for a Wizard to detect Pun-Pun, and eliminate him, if he is detectable before achieving said power.

4) Based on the answers to the above questions, and assuming Wizards cast COP at random times, what number of Wizards would need to exist in the multiverse before Pun-Pun could no longer exist?

1)At all times.  He is outside the normal continuity of time.

2)A matter of rounds, but as 1) states, once he ascends, he is no longer constrained by lineage/parentage or time.

3)Instantly pre-ascension, but since he always existed the moment he exists, it gets...dicey.

4)Just one, assuming a recharge outside the time stream.

Addendum : Any high level caster is capable of eliminating all Sarruks in existence, as well as all kobolds, but it would take massive revision of reality to do so while also eliminating the memory attached.  If someone so much as even remembers Manipulate Form exists, Pun-pun is always possible.

[Nunkuruji]

Heh, epic memory wipe is so awesome for eliminating Forgotten Realms deities

[betrayor]

Heh, epic memory wipe is so awesome for eliminating Forgotten Realms deities

Actually I really disliked that trilogy....

[spoiler]They killed every drow deity except for Lolth for the sake of Simplifcation.....[/spoiler]


Damn you 4th editiom.....

[wotmaniac]

To answer the title question:   no.

y'all are coming at this all wrong -- it's not a matter stopping Pun-Pun before he happens ... it's a matter of the entire concept being simply and completely incoherent.

Allow me to explain  

You see, the sarrukh, as they appear in Serpent Kingdoms, can only exist as childrens' myths -- in the Before Time, in the Long, Long Ago.  Whoever it was that recorded those stats clearly did not fully understand the entire nature of such a creature.  Why is that?  Well, because such a creature with god-like intelligence, almost super-human wisdom, and the manipulate form ability would never be content with such a mundane and mortal form.  The sarrukh, as a race, would have long ago used their manipulate form ability to collectively use pun-pun tactics one themselves, thus provoking the gods to sequester them away to rule the Far Realms .... either that or Shekinester would have them well under wraps, in which case not only would she have stepped-in to prevent them from that kind of ascension (as she would know such things) but she would have also removed them from any contact with the mortal world.

In all actuality, unbeknown to the recording archeologists who observed the sarrukh, the sarrukh are actually demi-gods themselves -- they are the acting arm of Shekinester herself .... thus placing them above any attempt of some silly kobold trying to steal their powers.
Poo-poo on Pazuzu.

And there you have it ..... Pun-Pun can not and does not exist.

 

[Prime32]

To answer the title question:   no.

y'all are coming at this all wrong -- it's not a matter stopping Pun-Pun before he happens ... it's a matter of the entire concept being simply and completely incoherent.

Allow me to explain  

You see, the sarrukh, as they appear in Serpent Kingdoms, can only exist as childrens' myths -- in the Before Time, in the Long, Long Ago.  Whoever it was that recorded those stats clearly did not fully understand the entire nature of such a creature.  Why is that?  Well, because such a creature with god-like intelligence, almost super-human wisdom, and the manipulate form ability would never be content with such a mundane and mortal form.  The sarrukh, as a race, would have long ago used their manipulate form ability to collectively use pun-pun tactics one themselves, thus provoking the gods to sequester them away to rule the Far Realms .... either that or Shekinester would have them well under wraps, in which case not only would she have stepped-in to prevent them from that kind of ascension (as she would know such things) but she would have also removed them from any contact with the mortal world.

In all actuality, unbeknown to the recording archeologists who observed the sarrukh, the sarrukh are actually demi-gods themselves -- they are the acting arm of Shekinester herself .... thus placing them above any attempt of some silly kobold trying to steal their powers.
Poo-poo on Pazuzu.

And there you have it ..... Pun-Pun can not and does not exist.

 

If D&D-land was consistent, shadows would have wiped out all sentient races in the Stone Age.

[snakeman830]

That and the fact that Sarruks are immune to the Manipulate Form ability, so they couldn't use it on themselves.

[Prime32]

That and the fact that Sarruks are immune to the Manipulate Form ability, so they couldn't use it on themselves.

Just grant something the special quality "Undyingly Loyal to Me (Ex)" then give them Manipulate Form. Unless they're too paranoid for that...

[Bozwevial]

That and the fact that Sarruks are immune to the Manipulate Form ability, so they couldn't use it on themselves.

Just grant something the special quality "Undyingly Loyal to Me (Ex)" then give them Manipulate Form. Unless they're too paranoid for that...

Who knows how they might choose to interpret loyalty? Oh god, I can't trust anyone except my familiar, Binky.

[KellKheraptis]

That and the fact that Sarruks are immune to the Manipulate Form ability, so they couldn't use it on themselves.

Just grant something the special quality "Undyingly Loyal to Me (Ex)" then give them Manipulate Form. Unless they're too paranoid for that...

Who knows how they might choose to interpret loyalty? Oh god, I can't trust anyone except my familiar, Binky.

Construct security blanket!  Meh...I like my Gingerbread Man
 

[Bauglir]

How long is something compelled to serve you with Gate? Cause I'd just Gate in a Fiendish Kobold or something, grant it Manipulate Form and order it to grant me Manipulate Form without the stipulation that Sarrukhs are immune, then use Manipulate Form to take Manipulate Form away from the Kobold before the duration expires.

[awaken DM golem]

#3 eliminate him, is (unfortunately) the easiest to answer.
You need to be T_G's Monty or psly4mne's Terminator, and use ALL time, but be able to ... and then it peters out.
Basically, the pre-ascended pun pun is killable.
Hence, Tsuyo's Shaedling. It's born. It ascends. Khan didn't like that.

#2 How long?
How many actions does it take to get to the Far Realms, after that it doesn't matter.
Tsuyo's Shaedling (if you accept his interpretation of it) takes one action to get to infinity,
and doesn't really need to go to the Far Realms.

#1 pun pun was assumed to be of no threat what-so-ever.
Only with the Sarrukh working overtime in a no time environment, does pun pun ascend.
You'd have to be able to pierce an individual plane within the Far Realms, after finding it.
You'd have to have infinite actions ahead of time.
So you're back to Monty of Terminator.

That said ... I've a few ideas 

[Bastian]

#3 eliminate him, is (unfortunately) the easiest to answer.
You need to be T_G's Monty or psly4mne's Terminator, and use ALL time, but be able to ... and then it peters out.
Basically, the pre-ascended pun pun is killable.
Hence, Tsuyo's Shaedling. It's born. It ascends. Khan didn't like that.

#2 How long?
How many actions does it take to get to the Far Realms, after that it doesn't matter.
Tsuyo's Shaedling (if you accept his interpretation of it) takes one action to get to infinity,
and doesn't really need to go to the Far Realms.

#1 pun pun was assumed to be of no threat what-so-ever.
Only with the Sarrukh working overtime in a no time environment, does pun pun ascend.
You'd have to be able to pierce an individual plane within the Far Realms, after finding it.
You'd have to have infinite actions ahead of time.
So you're back to Monty of Terminator.

That said ... I've a few ideas  

Except Post-Ascension Pun-Pun can already be using the same tricks to protect Pre-Ascension Pun-Pun and Post-Ascension Pun-Pun is automatically as strong or stronger than anything in existence by the very nature of its abilities. That's why attempting to kill Pun-Pun is a ridiculous proposition. To kill him you have to remove his ability (post ascension) to easily stop you from stopping him from ascending.

[xeno121]

Why doesn't Pun-Pun just leave to a different game setting? (say from Generic/Faerun to Eberron)

IIRC somewhere it says they are marginally connected, and if the time tricks don't cross from the Far Plane to the Material then I doubt it can cross to a different Material Plane.  If Pun-Pun's intention isn't to remain on his home plane then the Terminator has no reason to stop him since he leaves the moment he achieves unlimited power and if he mindrapes himself into believing his only purpose is to leave the plane and then do whatever he wants he wouldn't show up as a threat to anyone on his home plane that could stop him.  Maybe. Possibly. I won't work as hard at this as others I'll say that now.

[OblivionSmurf83]

#3 eliminate him, is (unfortunately) the easiest to answer.
You need to be T_G's Monty or psly4mne's Terminator, and use ALL time, but be able to ... and then it peters out.
Basically, the pre-ascended pun pun is killable.
Hence, Tsuyo's Shaedling. It's born. It ascends. Khan didn't like that.

#2 How long?
How many actions does it take to get to the Far Realms, after that it doesn't matter.
Tsuyo's Shaedling (if you accept his interpretation of it) takes one action to get to infinity,
and doesn't really need to go to the Far Realms.

#1 pun pun was assumed to be of no threat what-so-ever.
Only with the Sarrukh working overtime in a no time environment, does pun pun ascend.
You'd have to be able to pierce an individual plane within the Far Realms, after finding it.
You'd have to have infinite actions ahead of time.
So you're back to Monty of Terminator.

That said ... I've a few ideas  

Except Post-Ascension Pun-Pun can already be using the same tricks to protect Pre-Ascension Pun-Pun and Post-Ascension Pun-Pun is automatically as strong or stronger than anything in existence by the very nature of its abilities. That's why attempting to kill Pun-Pun is a ridiculous proposition. To kill him you have to remove his ability (post ascension) to easily stop you from stopping him from ascending.

The problem with this argument is it presupposes Pun-Pun will always get to ascend. That is, nothing can stop Pun-Pun from ascending, because it's presupposed he always did. What I'm arguing is, in any game universe where there are a sufficient number of high level Wizards, the formulation of a 'I want to become Pun-Pun' thought is bound to trigger alarms on everyone's COP castings, all at the same time. This means that, in any high magic universe where Pun-Pun may start his existence, he probably won't survive long enough past the formulation of the thought to actually ascend. That is, assuming the Wizards can locate him and kill him in less rounds than it takes him to start getting immunities.

[wotmaniac]

That and the fact that Sarruks are immune to the Manipulate Form ability, so they couldn't use it on themselves.

oops -- I missed that part.

still doesn't disprove that last part of my thesis.
(yes, I know I'm being silly; but that's how I've decided to handle things at the table if anyone decides to get stupid)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

#3 eliminate him, is (unfortunately) the easiest to answer.
You need to be T_G's Monty or psly4mne's Terminator, and use ALL time, but be able to ... and then it peters out.
Basically, the pre-ascended pun pun is killable.
Hence, Tsuyo's Shaedling. It's born. It ascends. Khan didn't like that.

#2 How long?
How many actions does it take to get to the Far Realms, after that it doesn't matter.
Tsuyo's Shaedling (if you accept his interpretation of it) takes one action to get to infinity,
and doesn't really need to go to the Far Realms.

#1 pun pun was assumed to be of no threat what-so-ever.
Only with the Sarrukh working overtime in a no time environment, does pun pun ascend.
You'd have to be able to pierce an individual plane within the Far Realms, after finding it.
You'd have to have infinite actions ahead of time.
So you're back to Monty of Terminator.

That said ... I've a few ideas  

Except Post-Ascension Pun-Pun can already be using the same tricks to protect Pre-Ascension Pun-Pun and Post-Ascension Pun-Pun is automatically as strong or stronger than anything in existence by the very nature of its abilities. That's why attempting to kill Pun-Pun is a ridiculous proposition. To kill him you have to remove his ability (post ascension) to easily stop you from stopping him from ascending.

The problem with this argument is it presupposes Pun-Pun will always get to ascend. That is, nothing can stop Pun-Pun from ascending, because it's presupposed he always did. What I'm arguing is, in any game universe where there are a sufficient number of high level Wizards, the formulation of a 'I want to become Pun-Pun' thought is bound to trigger alarms on everyone's COP castings, all at the same time. This means that, in any high magic universe where Pun-Pun may start his existence, he probably won't survive long enough past the formulation of the thought to actually ascend. That is, assuming the Wizards can locate him and kill him in less rounds than it takes him to start getting immunities.

Yes, but that presupposes that anyone else has time to get to a high level before someone gets the bright idea to ascend.

Which is why the basis is what level is sufficient to pull the trick.  If it's easier to pull off then counter, then it'll go off.

[OblivionSmurf83]

#3 eliminate him, is (unfortunately) the easiest to answer.
You need to be T_G's Monty or psly4mne's Terminator, and use ALL time, but be able to ... and then it peters out.
Basically, the pre-ascended pun pun is killable.
Hence, Tsuyo's Shaedling. It's born. It ascends. Khan didn't like that.

#2 How long?
How many actions does it take to get to the Far Realms, after that it doesn't matter.
Tsuyo's Shaedling (if you accept his interpretation of it) takes one action to get to infinity,
and doesn't really need to go to the Far Realms.

#1 pun pun was assumed to be of no threat what-so-ever.
Only with the Sarrukh working overtime in a no time environment, does pun pun ascend.
You'd have to be able to pierce an individual plane within the Far Realms, after finding it.
You'd have to have infinite actions ahead of time.
So you're back to Monty of Terminator.

That said ... I've a few ideas  

Except Post-Ascension Pun-Pun can already be using the same tricks to protect Pre-Ascension Pun-Pun and Post-Ascension Pun-Pun is automatically as strong or stronger than anything in existence by the very nature of its abilities. That's why attempting to kill Pun-Pun is a ridiculous proposition. To kill him you have to remove his ability (post ascension) to easily stop you from stopping him from ascending.

The problem with this argument is it presupposes Pun-Pun will always get to ascend. That is, nothing can stop Pun-Pun from ascending, because it's presupposed he always did. What I'm arguing is, in any game universe where there are a sufficient number of high level Wizards, the formulation of a 'I want to become Pun-Pun' thought is bound to trigger alarms on everyone's COP castings, all at the same time. This means that, in any high magic universe where Pun-Pun may start his existence, he probably won't survive long enough past the formulation of the thought to actually ascend. That is, assuming the Wizards can locate him and kill him in less rounds than it takes him to start getting immunities.

Yes, but that presupposes that anyone else has time to get to a high level before someone gets the bright idea to ascend.

Which is why the basis is what level is sufficient to pull the trick.  If it's easier to pull off then counter, then it'll go off.

Yes, I agree with that in theory. Assuming both Pun-Pun and every Wizard in the world start at level 1, then Pun-Pun clearly wins.

What I'm saying is, Pun-Pun doesn't exist in a vacuum. He's plonked into a world that already exists and (to the best of our knowledge), hasn't yet had another Pun-Pun. That is to say, the test in this hypothetical isn't Pun-Pun at level 1 versus a Wizard at level 1, it's just Pun-Pun dropped into the middle of the Forgotten Realms, for example, at the appropriate point in the Forgotten Realms timeline. Can Pun-Pun realistically succeed in his mission? This shouldn't be a question of DM fiat either. Rather, it's just a question of whether a 1st level Kobold, in the FR, Eberron, or similar multiverses, can become Pun-Pun before any one of the Wizards in that multiverse notices something is causing his COP casting to go crazy.

This is different to developing a build designed to take out Pun-Pun. It's also obviously not arguing that Pun-Pun will be taken out by DM fiat. Instead, what it's asking is, given the intelligence of high level Wizards and the versatility of COP, can Pun-Pun exist in any high-fantasy setting where high level Wizards are common and behave rationally?

Again, this isn't bagging Pun-Pun (as horrific as the little turd may be). It's just questioning whether he can survive as a 1st level character in a campaign setting where high level Wizards are common.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, you're also assuming that none of the high level wizards are trying to amass infinite power for themselves (surely the first person to get CoP would ask).  There's also the PC vs NPC dichotomy, since PC actions have access to a source of entropy that NPCs don't.