Evaluate these house rules.

[Beltendu]

JaronK, I'm still not sure why you think +strength crossbows make no sense.  A stiffer bow is going to fling the shot harder, which means more damage, and also means you need more force to load it.  Now granted, that can be provided by a better mechanism (lever based, crank, etc), but that can also be provided by strength (there were crossbows where the loading mechanism was a loop on the end for you to step in while you grabbed the string and pulled it back yourself).

This might be more complex than necessary, but maybe you could make it a trade off between strength and loading speed.  EG, a +4 "composite" crossbow always does the +4 damage, but loads slower if you don't have the full strength bonus.  In a way that's not unlike the difference between a light xbow and a heavy one.  So, something like this:

If your strength bonus is equal to the composite bonus, you can reload as a move action (for sake of argument, you can monkey with the values for balancing).  For each point by which you beat the composite bonus, you drop down a step in time (move->swift->immediate->free).  For each point by which the composite bonus is bigger, the loading time goes up (move->standard->full round->etc).  That would accurately model the idea that the xbow does the same damage regardless of your strength (since obviously your arms aren't holding the string), but lets your strength quicken the reload time (since even with a machine to help load the thing, you can operate the crank faster if you're stronger). 

You could even theoretically put in modifications for xbows to modify the loading mechanism, but we're starting to get well out into the land of too much freaking trouble...

[RobbyPants]

I'm surprised the crossbow thing got that much attention.

[Sunic_Flames]

I'm surprised the crossbow thing got that much attention.

Yeah. Enough about the goddamn crossbows. They are not changing, and that's final. Talk about something else now.

[RobbyPants]

I didn't notice that you'd posted feats.

• The Toughness feat grants 3 + HD HP, and cannot be taken more than once.
• Improved Toughness grants 3 + HD HP, requires Toughness and a base Fortitude save of +2, and can still only be taken once.

Nice.

• Metamagic cost reducers cannot reduce the cost of any given metamagic below 1 or by more than 1. Thus Extend Spell cannot be reduced below a +1 spell level metamagic, Empower Spell cannot be reduced below a +1 spell metamagic, and Maximize cannot be reduced below a +2 spell metamagic. Metamagic rods and Sudden Metamagic feats still work normally. Divine Metamagic also works normally, however Nightsticks are considered to grant the Extra Turning feat and the Extra Turning feat no longer stacks with itself. Thus, more than one Nightstick is pointless. In addition Divine Metamagic can only be fueled by Turn Undead, and not any other Turn abilities you might have.

All in all, I like this.  There are lots of ways to reduce the cost, but this keeps you from stacking them to crazytown.

• Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer exist.
• Two Weapon Fighting grants you a number of offhand attacks equal to the number of main hand attacks you are entitled to, and does not impose additional to hit penalties for a one handed weapon in the off hand. It also no longer has any prerequisites. Happy birthday.

Good.

• Two Weapon Defense provides an Insight bonus to AC equal to the number of mainhand attacks you can make derived from BAB.

Not bad.

• A third feat exists in the Two Weapon Fighting line called Two Weapon Parry. It requires both of the previous feats and a BAB of 11. With it you can 'hold' a pair of attacks from Two Weapon Fighting, and use those attacks as an Immediate action against an attack made on you. This pair of attacks can either be your primary pair or one of your secondary pairs. If either of your attack rolls are higher than the attack roll of the attack, the attack is parried and does not harm you. If both attack rolls are higher, the attack is parried and if the attack rolls are also sufficient to hit the enemy's AC + 4, you hit them normally with your attacks. If neither are higher, the parry fails and the attack is resolved normally. You must choose to use your stored Parry before learning the result of the attack roll. Parries not used by the start of your next turn are lost.

That's cool.  I've seen parry rules before, but the attack-back thing is kinda nice.

• Improved Trip no longer requires Combat Expertise.

Good.

• Improved Critical and Keen stack. Happy birthday. In addition Improved Critical applies to a category of weapons rather than a single type chosen from the following list: Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.

So, how does this work for other abilities which explicitly don't stack with Improved Critical or Keen?

• All three of the feats that give +2 to a save still do, except that if your base save bonus of that type is at least +6 you also no longer auto fail saves of that type on a natural 1. You must still actually roll high enough to save normally. If your base save bonus of that type is at least +12 you gain the following additional effect: Fortitude/Will: Mettle. Reflex: Evasion. If you already have these abilities for any reason you instead get a 1/day reroll on a failed save of that type. You must choose to use it after you know you failed the save, but before knowing what the result of doing so is. If the reroll is worse than the original roll, well too bad.

This scaling makes them nicer.  IIRC, you removed multiple +2s on good saves, right?  So this prevents multiclass save-boosting abuse.

• Monks are proficient with their own bodies (finally! They still fail though). They are also automatically proficient with gauntlets, which are considered a Monk weapon and do the listed damage or their unarmed strike damage, whichever is the greater.

It cracks me up how often that is overlooked.  Most monk builds I see online copy-pasta the SRD proficiencies, so this extends into most home-brew.

• Craft feats no longer grant a discount on the gold cost of an item, and no longer have an XP cost. They still cost the usual amount of time, but are granted automatically to anyone with a sufficient caster level.

I like this.  The "cost" is the feat, really, and the benefit is getting to control your own destiny for which items you get.  XP costs are stupid, anyway, as they tend to net you more XP than they cost.

[Beltendu]

I'm surprised the crossbow thing got that much attention.

Yeah. Enough about the goddamn crossbows. They are not changing, and that's final. Talk about something else now.

*shrug*  I was mostly agreeing with you anyway.  I just like the theoretical technical discussions...

So far I've liked what you've done, and don't feel any particular need to just say "good" when plenty of other people are doing it for me ...   Haven't felt any good reasons to question any of it either.  But then, I'm still working on getting all the interesting super-cheese combinations committed to memory like some here have, so that's not all that surprising ...

[Sunic_Flames]

• Improved Critical and Keen stack. Happy birthday. In addition Improved Critical applies to a category of weapons rather than a single type chosen from the following list: Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.

So, how does this work for other abilities which explicitly don't stack with Improved Critical or Keen?

Consider them to replace one of them. So if you have one of those abilities and either Keen or Improved Critical, you still have the maximum possible range. If you have both and the other ability, you benefit from two. I'm writing this, assuming said abilities expand the range in the same way. Is there a specific exception to this you were thinking of?

• All three of the feats that give +2 to a save still do, except that if your base save bonus of that type is at least +6 you also no longer auto fail saves of that type on a natural 1. You must still actually roll high enough to save normally. If your base save bonus of that type is at least +12 you gain the following additional effect: Fortitude/Will: Mettle. Reflex: Evasion. If you already have these abilities for any reason you instead get a 1/day reroll on a failed save of that type. You must choose to use it after you know you failed the save, but before knowing what the result of doing so is. If the reroll is worse than the original roll, well too bad.

This scaling makes them nicer.  IIRC, you removed multiple +2s on good saves, right?  So this prevents multiclass save-boosting abuse.[/quote]

I intentionally AVOIDED removing the multiclass save thing. You're the second person to miss that. Reasoning is simple. Who multiclasses a lot, and who doesn't? Exactly.

• Craft feats no longer grant a discount on the gold cost of an item, and no longer have an XP cost. They still cost the usual amount of time, but are granted automatically to anyone with a sufficient caster level.

I like this.  The "cost" is the feat, really, and the benefit is getting to control your own destiny for which items you get.  XP costs are stupid, anyway, as they tend to net you more XP than they cost.
[/quote]

You get the feats for free. All of them. But crafting has no discount. If you craft a 1k item, it's still 1k. Just as if you bought it. This was done for a different set of reasons, namely that since everyone gets more WBL, there's no need for workarounds with a pocket crafter to get all your must have gear and leaving it alone means everyone gets triple gear. Not helpful. And they're still useful if you can't find what you want in a shop, but if you never use them, they're free so you lost nothing.

[Beltendu]

You get the feats for free. All of them. But crafting has no discount. If you craft a 1k item, it's still 1k. Just as if you bought it. This was done for a different set of reasons, namely that since everyone gets more WBL, there's no need for workarounds with a pocket crafter to get all your must have gear and leaving it alone means everyone gets triple gear. Not helpful. And they're still useful if you can't find what you want in a shop, but if you never use them, they're free so you lost nothing.

Your quotes got borked, btw.

If I'm reading it correct, you still need the craft skill for whatever type of item you're creating, right?  (either yourself or someone else to make it for you)  You just get the ability to imbue the magic quality into it for free.  'Course, this is probably the smallest portion of the issue, since by the time you're making significant magic items, the masterwork item is a piddly piece of the puzzle.

[JaronK]

On TWF: Turning it into effectively Perfect Two Weapon Fighting could get a little weird on folks that have lots of bonus attacks... heck, it even gives enough to Monks to make them a little worrisome (Monk 6/Shou Discple 5/Warblade 2 with TWF would have 10 attacks, for example).  You might want to just roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, but without giving extra attacks for every mainhand attack.  Not saying that's critical, but you should factor in builds that get lots of normal attacks.

The critical stacking thing can get a little dangerous if people make use of crit heavy builds... consider the Eviscerator line of feats from Libris Mortis for example.  Improved Critical + Eviscerator + TWF + Keen Enfeebling Kukris + Blood in the Water, for example, means that every attack crits on a 15-20 and, using the build above, you've got 10 attacks to work with (Shou Disciple means Kukris work with flurry).  Every crit gives +1 to future hits and damage, debilitates all living opponents in the area, and does d6+2 str damage, and with 10 attacks you'd average around 2-3 crits per round.  Your call if that's how much power you want people to have.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

You get the feats for free. All of them. But crafting has no discount. If you craft a 1k item, it's still 1k. Just as if you bought it. This was done for a different set of reasons, namely that since everyone gets more WBL, there's no need for workarounds with a pocket crafter to get all your must have gear and leaving it alone means everyone gets triple gear. Not helpful. And they're still useful if you can't find what you want in a shop, but if you never use them, they're free so you lost nothing.

Your quotes got borked, btw.

If I'm reading it correct, you still need the craft skill for whatever type of item you're creating, right?  (either yourself or someone else to make it for you)  You just get the ability to imbue the magic quality into it for free.  'Course, this is probably the smallest portion of the issue, since by the time you're making significant magic items, the masterwork item is a piddly piece of the puzzle.

What quotes?

And no, you still have to get a MW weapon or armor if it is that type of item. Big fucking deal.

[Sunic_Flames]

On TWF: Turning it into effectively Perfect Two Weapon Fighting could get a little weird on folks that have lots of bonus attacks... heck, it even gives enough to Monks to make them a little worrisome (Monk 6/Shou Discple 5/Warblade 2 with TWF would have 10 attacks, for example).  You might want to just roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, but without giving extra attacks for every mainhand attack.  Not saying that's critical, but you should factor in builds that get lots of normal attacks.

The critical stacking thing can get a little dangerous if people make use of crit heavy builds... consider the Eviscerator line of feats from Libris Mortis for example.  Improved Critical + Eviscerator + TWF + Keen Enfeebling Kukris + Blood in the Water, for example, means that every attack crits on a 15-20 and, using the build above, you've got 10 attacks to work with (Shou Disciple means Kukris work with flurry).  Every crit gives +1 to future hits and damage, debilitates all living opponents in the area, and does d6+2 str damage, and with 10 attacks you'd average around 2-3 crits per round.  Your call if that's how much power you want people to have.

JaronK

If a Monk makes 10 attacks, they will still miss all of them.

I am quite aware that Blood in the Water will trigger 45% of the time with such a setup. See if I care. Since the goal is to put a trampoline at the bottom of that spiked pit trap, by boosting the critical based things that are not shut down by the ever present heavy fort means that I have succeeded.

I don't know what Eviscerator does. If it's that thing that requires you to be undead on a melee character well you're hopelessly gimped with a pathetic HP total, even after the other house rules raise it. So if you don't mind being one full attack away from death at any instant, go ahead.

[BeholderSlayer]

More for roleplaying/character differentiation functions I stole Endarire's skills idea and make them that ALL characters gain +6 base skills/level over their normal amount. This means rogues get 14, factotums 16, clerics 8, wizards 8, sorcerers 8, fighters 8, etc etc. Except for diplomancer crap, skills don't really break the game.

[Sunic_Flames]

More for roleplaying/character differentiation functions I stole Endarire's skills idea and make them that ALL characters gain +6 base skills/level over their normal amount. This means rogues get 14, factotums 16, clerics 8, wizards 8, sorcerers 8, fighters 8, etc etc. Except for diplomancer crap, skills don't really break the game.

Interesting, but fusing skills together to actually make individual skills worth something accomplishes the same goal as well or better.

I'm probably going to add some more stuff today.

[BeholderSlayer]

More for roleplaying/character differentiation functions I stole Endarire's skills idea and make them that ALL characters gain +6 base skills/level over their normal amount. This means rogues get 14, factotums 16, clerics 8, wizards 8, sorcerers 8, fighters 8, etc etc. Except for diplomancer crap, skills don't really break the game.

Interesting, but fusing skills together to actually make individual skills worth something accomplishes the same goal as well or better.

I'm probably going to add some more stuff today.

yeah well...I did both of those actually.

[Beltendu]

You get the feats for free. All of them. But crafting has no discount. If you craft a 1k item, it's still 1k. Just as if you bought it. This was done for a different set of reasons, namely that since everyone gets more WBL, there's no need for workarounds with a pocket crafter to get all your must have gear and leaving it alone means everyone gets triple gear. Not helpful. And they're still useful if you can't find what you want in a shop, but if you never use them, they're free so you lost nothing.

Your quotes got borked, btw.

If I'm reading it correct, you still need the craft skill for whatever type of item you're creating, right?  (either yourself or someone else to make it for you)  You just get the ability to imbue the magic quality into it for free.  'Course, this is probably the smallest portion of the issue, since by the time you're making significant magic items, the masterwork item is a piddly piece of the puzzle.

What quotes?

And no, you still have to get a MW weapon or armor if it is that type of item. Big fucking deal.

When you broke up RobbyPants' post to respond to it, the quotes broke for some reason.

And yeah, I realized that by the end of the post.  Only at the lowest levels is that even much of a concern (unless your DM is being a pain in the ass).

With respect to the two weapon fighting stuff, I think I kinda like Sunic's idea.  In base D&D, you have to give up a bunch to make TWF useful, and even then you probably miss more often than not with the later attacks anyway.  This gives them a better chance at competing.  Have you had a chance to play test these at all, Sunic?

[BeholderSlayer]

I absolutely love the suggested changes to two-weapon fighting. Not just the secondary attacks at 2nd BAB, but also the parrying rules. Definitely downright awesome. In fact, I am going to make implement parrying for one handers and two-handers as well.

[Sunic_Flames]

You get the feats for free. All of them. But crafting has no discount. If you craft a 1k item, it's still 1k. Just as if you bought it. This was done for a different set of reasons, namely that since everyone gets more WBL, there's no need for workarounds with a pocket crafter to get all your must have gear and leaving it alone means everyone gets triple gear. Not helpful. And they're still useful if you can't find what you want in a shop, but if you never use them, they're free so you lost nothing.

Your quotes got borked, btw.

If I'm reading it correct, you still need the craft skill for whatever type of item you're creating, right?  (either yourself or someone else to make it for you)  You just get the ability to imbue the magic quality into it for free.  'Course, this is probably the smallest portion of the issue, since by the time you're making significant magic items, the masterwork item is a piddly piece of the puzzle.

What quotes?

And no, you still have to get a MW weapon or armor if it is that type of item. Big fucking deal.

When you broke up RobbyPants' post to respond to it, the quotes broke for some reason.

And yeah, I realized that by the end of the post.  Only at the lowest levels is that even much of a concern (unless your DM is being a pain in the ass).

With respect to the two weapon fighting stuff, I think I kinda like Sunic's idea.  In base D&D, you have to give up a bunch to make TWF useful, and even then you probably miss more often than not with the later attacks anyway.  This gives them a better chance at competing.  Have you had a chance to play test these at all, Sunic?

A slightly less drastic form of the TWF change was applied in a game I was in for a while. Ultimately that character would have still been better off with a two handed weapon, but dual wielding did actually work for them. I'm also told that three of the people I've conferred with use that exact wording in their game. It results in a nice Bard build with Arcane Strike and all the other stuff. I think one of their games had a Paladin that used it with some smite changes I haven't wrote out yet. The general idea being that Smite Evil is x/encounter, and applies to every attack in a full attack. There's other differences as well, but that's the important one.

The general idea in both cases is that TWF is paying for the privilege of sucking. You need twice the money spent on weapons, you have to use inferior weapon types, you have to invest in an inferior stat, and you have to set multiple feats on fire, all to do the same or less damage with less accuracy as any dumbfuck with a two hander.

Well increased WBL means the items might actually be affordable, the Dex requirement is gone, and it only costs 1 feat. The other drawbacks are still there, which is why I say I could do more. The only reason why I don't is because it's kind of assumed even with the fix you won't be a TWFer unless you have a lot of bonus damage flying around.

The parrying rule was simply to make TWF different from two handed weapons. Otherwise either one or the other is the DPS method, and the other is gimped. Since you play DDO you already knew that though. Sword and board can't be saved. And thanks to Aelryinth, I don't really want to. Floating shields for the win.

[Sunic_Flames]

More added.

[Prime32]

On TWF: Turning it into effectively Perfect Two Weapon Fighting could get a little weird on folks that have lots of bonus attacks... heck, it even gives enough to Monks to make them a little worrisome (Monk 6/Shou Discple 5/Warblade 2 with TWF would have 10 attacks, for example).  You might want to just roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, but without giving extra attacks for every mainhand attack.  Not saying that's critical, but you should factor in builds that get lots of normal attacks.

I thought flurry of blows was applied afterwards (like the bonus attack from haste), so you couldn't dual-wield them?

On shields, what about granting extra attacks as TWF, but only allowing them to be used for parries? (bonus on parry roll equal to shield bonus) Plus allowing parries against things which would normally require Reflex saves. Tower shields let you add 1.5x the relevant ability score to the attack roll, like two-handed weapons.

[JaronK]

If a Monk makes 10 attacks, they will still miss all of them.

I am quite aware that Blood in the Water will trigger 45% of the time with such a setup. See if I care. Since the goal is to put a trampoline at the bottom of that spiked pit trap, by boosting the critical based things that are not shut down by the ever present heavy fort means that I have succeeded.

Just making sure you thought it through.

I don't know what Eviscerator does. If it's that thing that requires you to be undead on a melee character well you're hopelessly gimped with a pathetic HP total, even after the other house rules raise it. So if you don't mind being one full attack away from death at any instant, go ahead.

I've played a few undead characters, and their HP is amazing (better if you get the full 12hp/HD).  You just have to be created right.  Normally that means being created near a desecrated shrine (+2HP/HD) by either a Dread Necromancer or UA Necromancer (+2 HP/HD, +4 Str/Dex).  If you can have it done by someone with Corpsecrafter then so much the better (+2HP/HD) but no gaurentees you can find that.  But even without Corpsecrafter, D12+4 HP per HD on a character who could dump con entirely (and thus have better other stats) is quite reasonable.  Your house rules put that to 16 HP/HD, which really isn't bad at all.  Plus it's really easy for undead characters to get free constant healing (a single casting of Black Sand will set you with effective 1d6 Fast Healing if you like).  I'd hardly call that "hopelessly gimped" especially if you didn't have D10+HD to begin with.  Undead characters in our parties usually had significantly more hp at any given level (in the group where I play a Corpsecrafting Dread Necromancer).

But yes, Eviscerator requires being undead.  Any time you critically hit, all living enemies in the area (30' or 60', I can't remember) get a long duration fear effect on them with no save.  Anyone susceptable to fear can be REALLY screwed over by this.

@Prime:  His house rules say you get an extra offhand attack for every mainhand attack you'd make.  So, as written that would indeed give extra attacks off the normal flurry attacks.  That's why I was making sure he realized that.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

On TWF: Turning it into effectively Perfect Two Weapon Fighting could get a little weird on folks that have lots of bonus attacks... heck, it even gives enough to Monks to make them a little worrisome (Monk 6/Shou Discple 5/Warblade 2 with TWF would have 10 attacks, for example).  You might want to just roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, but without giving extra attacks for every mainhand attack.  Not saying that's critical, but you should factor in builds that get lots of normal attacks.

I thought flurry of blows was applied afterwards (like the bonus attack from haste), so you couldn't dual-wield them?

On shields, what about granting extra attacks as TWF, but only allowing them to be used for parries? (bonus on parry roll equal to shield bonus) Plus allowing parries against things which would normally require Reflex saves. Tower shields let you add 1.5x the relevant ability score to the attack roll, like two-handed weapons.

See previous post.

Edit: With those things you have the HP of a 20 Con D10 dicer. Which is merely decent. Without them you have the HP of someone with 12 Con, which is pathetic. Really, that's a rather contrived situation, and one that opens you up to all manner of weaknesses you would not otherwise have while not really giving you many strengths. And remember, your weaknesses matter more than your strengths, as the net result of having a strength is enemies know what not to do, whereas the net result of having a weakness is enemies know exactly what to do.

Also, isn't that a fear effect? Watch me not care.