Author Topic: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?  (Read 9210 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 08:29:56 PM »
Read his post. Calishite Elementalist gives him an additional die.

Handy Links

Godless_Paladin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2010, 08:31:12 PM »
Battlefield control spells have never really ruined the game's fun for me.  There's all kinds of counters and counter-counters as long as people aren't playing Monks or something.  *Shrug*

strider24seven

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2010, 11:24:14 PM »
As a player, I've used crowd control as a wizard and made good use of the wizard when I'm a mundane.
As a DM, I've had crowd control spells destroy "overpowering" encounters.
I've also seen our entire party teleport-ganked by a rival adventuring party.  You don't realize how devastating Forcecage, Solid Fog, Cloudkill, Rock to Mud, and Mud to Rock can be until they're used to lock down your entire party in one turn.

Having seen crowd control from all angles, I can say that it adds a tactical element to the game that is entirely necessary for it to be fun. 

If anyone cares about the above encounter:
[spoiler]
Our 12th lvl Party: Elan Psion (Egoist), Goliath Barbarian/Fighter (Dungeoncrasher), Gnome Artificer, Warforged Dragonfire Adept/Crusader, Aasimar Monk/Ur-Priest
Enemy 13th lvl Party: Gray Elf Wizard/Iot7V, Gnome Beguiler/StP Erudite/Cerebremancer, Human Hellfire Warlock, Dwarf Monk/Ardent
Pre-combat:  Enemy Teleports all around us, buffed to the gills
Surprise Round:  (Wizard, Beguiler, and Warlock all use readied actions, then take their surprise round as normal)
-Wizard casts Forcecage and Cloudkill on the Fighter, casts Solid Fog to separate the DFA from the rest of the party
-Beguiler casts Split Ray of Stupidity on the Psion and Artificer, Wall of Ectoplasm trapping the DFA, and Quickened Entangling Ectoplasm on the Ur-Priest
-Warlock casts Nightmares Made Real over the party and Chilling Tentacles over the Artificer and Psion
-Ardent casts Astral Construct and Quickened Ego Whip on the Psion

Summary:  Before the first round, we were screwed.  The Psion and Artificer lost access to their high level spells/powers, 3 of us were either entangled or grappled, the DFA was cut off from everyone, the Psion was dazed, and the Fighter was stuck in a Forcecage/Cloudkill.  And we had to fight 4 high-level enemies who had prebuffed, summoned, AND had concealment (we saved vs NMR). 

We actually managed to come out on top because the Artificer managed to dispel the Solid Fog blocking the DFA with a wand and used a scroll of Disintegrate on the Fighter's Forcecage.  The enemy tried to Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock under the Ubercharger, but a second scroll of disintegrate fixed that.  One Pouncing Heedless Charge later and the enemy was down 1 Wizard.  The Psion managed to break free from his daze and after a pair of augmented Mind Thrusts, the Ardent was down.  The warlock was tough to bring down, but a well-placed Harm by the Ur-Priest brought him to 1hp, followed by another Mind Thrust.  The Fighter then proceeded to smash the Beguiler into his own Wall of Ectoplasm for heavy Dungeoncrasher damage.  We had two guys in the negatives by the end of the fight, and had no spells left.  We had to end our adventuring day right then and there.  It was awesome :D[/spoiler]

Godless_Paladin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2010, 11:37:37 PM »
As a player, I've used crowd control as a wizard and made good use of the wizard when I'm a mundane.
As a DM, I've had crowd control spells destroy "overpowering" encounters.
I've also seen our entire party teleport-ganked by a rival adventuring party.  You don't realize how devastating Forcecage, Solid Fog, Cloudkill, Rock to Mud, and Mud to Rock can be until they're used to lock down your entire party in one turn.

Having seen crowd control from all angles, I can say that it adds a tactical element to the game that is entirely necessary for it to be fun.  

Agreed.  I too have seen these situations, and I wouldn't ever want to take battlefield control away.

Redeemer of Ogar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • My wife's art page:
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 01:04:03 AM »
Thanks to Tshern and AM for reading well.   You get to steal a gold star from Snake and Raith0 respectively. :D
@Strider: Sounds like an awesome fight. Do I understand that the charger got stuck in rock, and you disintegrated the rock around him? Hilarious, but my GM would totally have stuck the charger in the bottom of a pit if I tried that. Did yours do something different, or did the fighter have to jump out?

Our biggest party defeats ever have come from enemy BC, btw, but one was the ridiculous Green Vise plant monster, who has a poison fog that drops you to BELOW 5' movement, which is just beyond wrong for the CR. The other was entirely my party-members' fault for being loud and giving the enemy notice and prep time. Nothing says fun like a displaced enemy standing behind an invisible-spelled Web when you're playing a charger. :P

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2010, 10:43:32 AM »
How contained can a fight get before things are no longer fun for you?  For your party?  For the DM?
For the caster: until things are "safe" for the party.

For the party: until they realize they aren't needed.

For the DM: until he realizes that the monsters don't stand a chance, even though all of them are still at full HP.

These three things typically happen within a round or two of each other, depending on how many casters are in the group.



Sometimes this type of stuff can be fun if I take it as a challenge to myself.  I was in one solo fight where the DM through eight rogues at my druid, hoping to flank-sneak attack the druid like crazy.  Not only was the fight a breeze due to the crowd control, I took it upon myself to see if I could capture all eight of them alive without taking damage.  It was quite a different fight than the DM was picturing.  :smirk

The DM does have to pay attention to stuff two. SDK mentioned having opponents stay split so they don't get caught in one AoE spell.  I remember a fight where the DM through me up against six or so kobolds with PC levels, several of whom were casters.  This particular fight wasn't on a battlefield map, so I had to ask the DM questions about the layout.  I was pondering my options when I realized that they were all standing dangerously close together.  A single EBT ended the entire thing without any further effort on my part. :plotting
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2010, 11:20:00 AM »
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 10:42:27 AM by InnaBinder »
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2010, 11:56:48 AM »
The story about getting telefragged is a good reason why taking steps to prevent scry and fry is a part of this balanced adventure.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2010, 04:59:14 PM »
The story about getting telefragged is a good reason why taking steps to prevent scry and fry is a part of this balanced adventure.
I actually think for my next game I'm going to not allow studying an area with scrying to count for teleports. It has eliminated all travel in my f2f games and made it difficult to get the party combat in open areas so the archer can be useful. I will give them credit for using it effectively vs some devils that had kicked their butts the day before though.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2010, 05:10:45 PM »
The story about getting telefragged is a good reason why taking steps to prevent scry and fry is a part of this balanced adventure.
I actually think for my next game I'm going to not allow studying an area with scrying to count for teleports. It has eliminated all travel in my f2f games and made it difficult to get the party combat in open areas so the archer can be useful. I will give them credit for using it effectively vs some devils that had kicked their butts the day before though.

High level parties stop walking (or flying) places. Welcome to high levels.

If you want players to fight outside, then put the battlefield outside. Doesn't matter if they Teleport to it or not, once they get there they are outside. That is completely irrelevant to the goal of getting them to fight outside.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2010, 05:15:38 PM »
The story about getting telefragged is a good reason why taking steps to prevent scry and fry is a part of this balanced adventure.
I actually think for my next game I'm going to not allow studying an area with scrying to count for teleports. It has eliminated all travel in my f2f games and made it difficult to get the party combat in open areas so the archer can be useful. I will give them credit for using it effectively vs some devils that had kicked their butts the day before though.

High level parties stop walking (or flying) places. Welcome to high levels.

If you want players to fight outside, then put the battlefield outside. Doesn't matter if they Teleport to it or not, once they get there they are outside. That is completely irrelevant to the goal of getting them to fight outside.
I have done it some, but things often feel very forced. It also makes it difficult when one guy wants to be in melee, one wants a half mile of range, and the casters just want the fight over so the other two can be quite about it.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2010, 05:23:13 PM »
The story about getting telefragged is a good reason why taking steps to prevent scry and fry is a part of this balanced adventure.
I actually think for my next game I'm going to not allow studying an area with scrying to count for teleports. It has eliminated all travel in my f2f games and made it difficult to get the party combat in open areas so the archer can be useful. I will give them credit for using it effectively vs some devils that had kicked their butts the day before though.

High level parties stop walking (or flying) places. Welcome to high levels.

If you want players to fight outside, then put the battlefield outside. Doesn't matter if they Teleport to it or not, once they get there they are outside. That is completely irrelevant to the goal of getting them to fight outside.
I have done it some, but things often feel very forced. It also makes it difficult when one guy wants to be in melee, one wants a half mile of range, and the casters just want the fight over so the other two can be quite about it.

If you can Teleport, you can Dimension Door.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2010, 06:06:02 PM »
Thanks to Tshern and AM for reading well.   You get to steal a gold star from Snake and Raith0 respectively. :D
Anyone want to change that for a sixpack of beer?

Handy Links

strider24seven

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2010, 12:04:36 AM »

Generally, groups I play in have a gentle(wo)men's agreement with the DM:  that we, as players, will not scry n' die our foes, and we will not likewise be scried n' died.  This event was soon after we broke this agreement-  we took out the leader of a powerful nation... because we could.  We had just gained access to teleport powers and spells and we wanted to try them out.  Several in-game days (and levels) later, the nation's new leadership hired those adventurers as a hit squad. 


The fate of that nation, if anyone cares:
[spoiler]
Needless to say, within 3 sessions, not much remained of that nation.  Every member of its court was found dead within 2 days, the result of our scry n' die guerilla warfare.  The International Wizards' Guild supported that nation, but not unanimously, so every member that supported the nation ended up Decerebrated.  The Merchant's Guilds that traded in that region had every caravan robbed and torched.  All of the nation's forests were burned down, the crops were destroyed, the cities were leveled, and the entire region was sewn with salt so that nothing could grow there again.  Needless to say, there were no more assassination attempts by any mortal nation.  We did have visits from Celestials and Inevitibles, though...
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2010, 10:33:28 AM »
Win.

Do not meddle in the affairs of adventurers, because you are squishy and taste like XP.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

strider24seven

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2010, 11:48:05 AM »
Win.

Do not meddle in the affairs of adventurers, because you are squishy and taste like XP.

Especially those adventurers who write
[spoiler]
"Fuck your shit up," in Explosive Runes, often surrounded by Symbols of Stun, Pain, and Death
[/spoiler]
on their shields, armor, helmets, belts, spellbooks, saddles, swords, halberds, and pretty much anything else we can write on.  The fighter actually had that tatooed to his chest in explosive runes at one point.  

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2010, 02:23:25 PM »
Win.

Do not meddle in the affairs of adventurers, because you are squishy and taste like XP.

Especially those adventurers who write
[spoiler]
"Fuck your shit up," in Explosive Runes, often surrounded by Symbols of Stun, Pain, and Death
[/spoiler]
on their shields, armor, helmets, belts, spellbooks, saddles, swords, halberds, and pretty much anything else we can write on.  The fighter actually had that tatooed to his chest in explosive runes at one point.  


Fail.

Reread Explosive Runes.

Now Illusionary Script? That's some good shit.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Surreal

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1430
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2010, 03:31:40 PM »
The control I hate most is AMF (next runner up is Dispel Magic), both as a DM and player. I appreciate their power and usage, but game momentum grinds to a halt when everyone has to recalculate stat sheets.
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Drull

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • Email
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2010, 06:49:31 PM »
Personally as a DM I try not to use Solid Fog and its superiors on the party. (until most of the party has had the chance to get a counter for it).

Hitting them with a cloud, and then hearing "i move 5 feet twice" from 4-6 people for 2-3 rounds is anything but fun....

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: How much crowd control ruins the game's fun?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2010, 10:55:51 PM »
The control I hate most is AMF (next runner up is Dispel Magic), both as a DM and player. I appreciate their power and usage, but game momentum grinds to a halt when everyone has to recalculate stat sheets.
MDJ is even worse.