Author Topic: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ  (Read 5855 times)

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Nasteh

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Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« on: October 21, 2010, 03:53:18 PM »
Hi optimizers,

I have a bit of a problem, as I am looking to play a gish and have fallen for the Pala2/Sorc6/Abjurant Champ 5.

My problem is, I can't figure out a way to get around arcane spell failure, and I am hoping you can help me build a decent gish.
Here are my thoughts and restrictions:

Material: All material except for Tome Of Battle, Unearthed arcana and Dragon Magazine.

Houserule:
    When you enter a prestige class you have to finish it, so no dipping around.
    We will have very little in terms of magical gear.
    Tier 1 classes http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0is not allowed nor any form of teleportation (if that is relevant for some reason)

What I hope you can do:
 Suggest a Gish build, that will be viable allready at level 5-6 or so (this is the starting levels) without any cheese :)

Hoping you can Help

/Jacob

Solo

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 03:58:20 PM »
Use Mage ARmor, Shield, and Alter Self to get +16 to AC

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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Nunkuruji

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 03:59:01 PM »
1 level of Spellsword (CWar) should be of little difficulty to qualify for, gaining -10% ASF

The Shove it to Beatsticks thread contains info on how to make armor with little to no ASF.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0

Nasteh

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 04:04:44 PM »
Wow, thank you for the super fast replies.

Solo: I realise it's possible to do with spells and a straight sorc would probably be better. But I would like an armour wearing guy, and I'd prefer if Paladin/sorc is the core (open for other stuff though).

Nunku: Ye, I realise spellsword would be the best way of doing it, but if I start on spellsword I'd have to take all 10 levels (house rule) and I can't imagine that to be a worthy choice, when you compare it to abjurant champion :)

/Jacob
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 04:06:29 PM by Nasteh »

altpersona

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2010, 04:13:39 PM »
still spell? +1 spell lvl, but its comprehensive...
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Nunkuruji

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2010, 04:17:16 PM »
Sorry, missed the houserule. You could always spell thematic your mage armor to make it look like real armor ;)

Rebel7284

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 04:18:09 PM »
Too bad Luminous Armor doesn't work for spontaneous casters from what I recall.
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saethone

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 04:42:33 PM »
mithral twilight chain shirt should be fine

Mixster

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2010, 04:51:41 PM »
When playing a Sorcadin, I usually go with armour and a greatsword at the low levels. Usually a breastplate, mithral if I can get it. Twilight if I can get that as well. I use most my spells for pre-combat buffs, and detect magic. Since I have 6+ spells per day, I don't care that I have a 25% chance of missing the spell, I'll just cast it again if it is not in combat.

Sorcadins require quite decent stats though, you'll want a high dex because you wont be wearing lots of armour, a good con because sorc loses you a lot of hit points, a high Cha for both saves, lay on hands and spells, and a high strength because you want to hit stuff.

So if you have the stats for it, Sorcadin can be quite decent at level 5, hit things with your greatsword, get some armour and use your spells for buffing. If you can get the instant metamagic sorcerer variant, you can take two feats to make all your spells work in armour, namely still spells and easy metamagic still spell IIRC. If not, you'll have to take a feat for each spell you want to cast in armour, Arcane thesis, which is why it wont be worth it.
If you can get access to the Races of Stone Dwarf prestige class (runecaster or something) you can cast all your spells without somatic components, making you wanting to wear that full plate all the time.

In any case you could just use shield, mage armour and Alter Self, but it is the simple solution.
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juton

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2010, 05:08:11 PM »
You can take versatile spellcaster + still spell so that you can cast your highest level spells without ASF, but it cuts your spells per day in half. The best non-magic armour without ASF is a Feycrafted (DMGII) Blended Quartz (Arms & Equipment Guide) Breastplate. If you can get armour enchanted then you can get the same thing as full plate, with twighlight (PHB2) which reduces your ASF another 10%.

altpersona

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2010, 05:14:26 PM »
w/ the natural synergy and phonemic easy in the sorcadin, it should have it own hand book.

cant talk you into a duskblade? i know it gives up lots of spells..

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altpersona

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 05:23:48 PM »
Srd 9th lvl spells w/ somatic components.

[spoiler]Astral Projection
Crushing Hand
Dominate Monster
Energy Drain
Etherealness
Foresight
Freedom
Gate
Hold Monster, Mass
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Refuge
Shades
Shapechange
Soul Bind
Summon Monster IX
Weird[/spoiler]


and srd 9th lvl sorc spells without

[spoiler]Mage's Disjunction
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Sphere
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish[/spoiler]

you could do very well for your self with strictly non somatic 9's and gate
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


ninjarabbit

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2010, 05:31:48 PM »
Armor class is overrated. With spells like greater mirror image, blink, and displacement your AC won't be much of an issue and even then you'll have quickened shield for +9 AC, mage armor for +4 AC, and any natural armor bonuses from polymorph/alter self.

With these house rules greater magic weapon becomes an even better spell to know.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2010, 05:50:02 PM »
Too bad Luminous Armor doesn't work for spontaneous casters from what I recall.
Yeah, and I think that's lame. Personally I'll allow a spontaneous caster to use it. It's just like always with how WotC says a big  :fo to sorcerers. My group ignores this rule.
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[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Nasteh

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 07:08:33 PM »
So many replies, thanks a lot :)

Seems the general recomendation is "forget armour, just use spells". I am inclined to go with that, and I guess two rounds of buffing (shield, magearmour) will have to do.

But how to build him then, when I am not allowed to dip and have  to finish all prestige classes?

I am guessing pala2/sorc6 - but it feels like such a long wait before I get into Abj champion.

What I am saying is; thanks for all your help so far, could you help out with builds as well? I got my stats handed to me and they are:
18 16 14 12 12 8 distributed as I'd like it :)

/Jacob - and thanks again.

saethone

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 07:22:57 PM »
once you hit abjurant champion you will only need swift actions of shield. see if your DM will houserule mage armor to abjuration :P

Rebel7284

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 07:34:51 PM »
Or use the spell research rules to get them as abjuration.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Emy

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 07:45:53 PM »
Arcane Preparation, CAr 73.

Use luminous armor, shield , and alter self [assuming Humanoid] into a Tren to get +27 to AC. Greater luminous armor instead gets 3 more AC. Also melee attacks against you get -4. That should be plenty to stop worry about AC and start worrying about miss chance and the like instead.

Also, since you're a Sorcerer, have you checked out all the goodies that Kobolds can get?

I know the image of a dude in heavy armor is pretty iconic for a paladin, but in my opinion, armor is mostly useful for putting spikes/enhancements onto (fortification mostly). Also you can turn your armor into a holy symbol if you want to look extra badass.

Additionally, consider getting some Runestaffs for things that you plan on only casting once per day, so you don't have to use spells known on them. I'll have to check the runestaff text, but it might be possible to use a runestaff containing luminous armor without a UMD check, which would save you a feat. Hell, even with a UMD check, you're gonna be pumping Cha anyway.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 07:50:24 PM by Emy »

Maat_Mons

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2010, 08:22:33 PM »
I see people have already mentioned:
  • Blended Quartz: -20%, 2,000 gp (light) or 5,000 gp (medium) or 10,000 gp (heavy), Arms and Equipment Guide
  • Feycraft: -5%, 500 gp, Dungeon Master's guide II
  • Mithral: -10%, 1,000 gp (light) or 4,000 gp (medium) or 9,000 gp (heavy), Dungeon Master's Guide
  • Twilight: -10%, +1, Player's Handbook II

I'll add:
  • Githcraft: -5%, 600 gp, Dungeon Master's guide II
  • Thistledown Suit: -5%, 250 gp, Races of the Wild

A thistledown suit can be worn under any armor normally made of metal, provides -5% arcane spell failure chance for the armor it is worn under, and is cheaper than an other item that provides a similar benefit.  Githcraft is 100 gp more expensive than feycraft, but may be worth it for the +1 to concentration checks it provides.  It is possible for armor to be both githcraft and feycraft, but some DMs might object due to the fairly specific circumstances under which such armor could be made. 

A mithral, feycraft chain shirt over a thistledown suit has no arcane spell failure chance and costs only 1,850 gp.  Even if you do use spells for your armor bonus, you can still wear the shirt and use it to hold armor special abilities (as Emy said, though I don't suggest putting fortification on your armor unless you aren't allowed the gemstone of fortification from Draconomicon, page 83.) 

If Oriental Adventures is allowed, feycraft or githcraft dastana and chahar-aina would also be nice. 

Nasteh

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Re: Pala/Sorc/Abjurant champ
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 05:49:02 AM »
Once again thanks for all your help.

After reading all your ideas and suggestions, this is my thoughts.

2 pala levels bring the following to the table:

+Cha to saves, 2 bab, flavour.
I loose
2 caster levels, 1spelllevel.

Am I really better off going straight Sorc, and forgetting about this Gish project? I have been trying some builds out, and I am not sure it's worth it in any way. Thanks for all your help.

/Jacob - disillusioned :)