Author Topic: A Triple Casting Prestige Class  (Read 7659 times)

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OblivionSmurf83

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A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« on: October 21, 2010, 04:48:33 AM »
Let's take a hypothetical prestige class, whose entrance requirement can only be met with a Cleric 1/Druid 1/Sorcerer 1. Assume the class lasts for 17 levels, and advances all three classes' spellcasting ability. However, it has no other features, poor BAB, d4 HD, and all bad saves. Would it be a tempting choice for characters? If not, what features would be required to make the class tempting.

betrayor

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 04:51:16 AM »
In my opinion is very unbalanced......
I think it is too strong as I believe that spell are the strongest element in the game and this Guy has the three of the strongest spelllists in the game....

Jopustopin

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 05:10:35 AM »
But he's always one level behind the wizard cleric and druid!  He's like... a gestalt sorcerer/favored soul (you know with druid spellcasting and a wider range of spells available).

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 05:39:12 AM »
Mystic theurge requires second level spells, has D4, strong will save and advances spell casting for 2 classes. So no, your proposed class is not balanced - it only loses will save but gives additional spell progression. And it has easier requirements.

Another question is how long the prestige class should be? Probably 10 levels, right? What then?

clr 1/drd 1/sor 1/filler/urpriest/filler/sublime chord/triple caster 10

ImmortalSoul

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2010, 06:13:26 AM »
He assumes the class lasts for 17 levels.

I'd say for purposes of determining balance on this optimization board it's too strong. However, I'd probably not want to play it on the first few levels, because literally every trap or enemy will potentially end your adventuring career instantly. The fact you get 9th levels spells in all three classes seems vastly superior to quite a lot of things at level 20, though.

OblivionSmurf83

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2010, 06:37:27 AM »
Interesting that the majority of responses have been that the class is unbalanced so far. At what point does everyone think the class becomes unbalanced? Level 3, before its entered? Level 4, when you've got the spellcasting of a Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid 2? Level 19 when the Cleric and Druid get 9th level spells? Level 20 when the Sorcerer gets his one 9th level spell?

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 06:52:19 AM »
Can't we nearly achieve this with a simple Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge/??? build?

wotmaniac

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 07:08:01 AM »
Seems a little constricting, as well as way over-powered.
My first impulse is to make it a 10-level PrC, with the following prereqs:
- able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells; able to cast 2nd-level spells in 3 different classes
- spellcraft 13 ranks
- 6 ranks in each of:
  -- Knowledge (arcane)
  -- Knowledge (religion)
  -- Knowledge (nature)

go ahead and give it good will saves and 4 skill points/level, but keep the d4 HD and poor bab.  Maybe even give it Alternative Spell Source as a bonus feat at 1st level .... alternatively, you could give it the Geomancer's Spell Versatility ability.


Adaptations might look like:
- able to cast 2nd-level divine and arcane spells, and manifest 2nd-level powers (required skills = knowledge (arcana), (psionics), and either (religion)/(nature) ; add in 6 ranks of psicraft)
-or-
- able to cast 2nd-level divine and arcane spells, and be a 4th-level invoker (required skills = knowledge (arcana) and either (religion)/(nature) ; (arcana) at least 10 ranks)


Quote
At what point does everyone think the class becomes unbalanced?
I'd say sometime before level 10 (character level, that is).  :shrug
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 07:49:31 AM by wotmaniac »

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Phoenix00

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2010, 11:32:26 AM »
This on my opinion would be balanced

Entry at level 4 with 3 spellcasting requirements.  17 levels.  Total spellcasting advancement would be 14 out of 17 for all 3 classes yielding a total of 8th level spells in 3 classes via level 20.  Here is how I would structure the spellcasting advancement

PRC Level
Level 1 and 2Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C
Level 3Full Advancement for Classes A, B
Level 4Full Advancement for Classes A, C
Level 5Full Advancement for Classes B, C
Level 6 and 7Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C
Level 8Full Advancement for Classes A, B
Level 9Full Advancement for Classes A, C
Level 10Full Advancement for Classes B, C
Level 11 and 12Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C
Level 13Full Advancement for Classes A, B
Level 14Full Advancement for Classes A, C
Level 15Full Advancement for Classes B, C
Level 16 and 17Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C

So compared to a normal wizard here is how many levels behind you are at each level

Levels behind a normal wizard/cleric/druid
Character Level Class A Class B Class C
10**
211*
3222
4222
5222
6223
7233
8333
9333
10333
11334
12344
13444
14444
15444
16445
17455
18555
19555
20555

carnivore

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2010, 11:41:40 AM »
the problem is that if this is allowed ... it would always be used with a Fast Progressing Caster Class(Ur Priest + Sublime Chord(or Beholder Mage)) and just not enter it until they needed to:

Bard 1/ Druid(B) 3/ MT 5/ Ur Priest(C) 2/ Sublime Chord(A) 1/ triple progression 9
Level 1 and 2 Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C
Level 3 Full Advancement for Classes A, B
Level 4 Full Advancement for Classes A, C
Level 5 Full Advancement for Classes B, C
Level 6 and 7 Full Advancement for Classes A, B, C
Level 8 Full Advancement for Classes A, B
Level 9 Full Advancement for Classes A, C

9th lvl Ur Priest spells
9th lvl Sublime Chord spells
7th lvl Druid

 :D


Sunic_Flames

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2010, 12:01:07 PM »
It seems overpowered... until you remember that the Big Five can all cast off each other's lists anyways. Then you're just delaying progression by 2 levels for no reason.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 12:03:03 PM »
Bard 1/ Druid(B) 3/ MT 5/ Ur Priest(C) 2/ Sublime Chord(A) 1/ triple progression 9

How does that build get around ur priest's requirement to forever forsake all other divine casting ability? 

bearsarebrown

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2010, 12:26:18 PM »
It seems overpowered... until you remember that the Big Five can all cast off each other's lists anyways. Then you're just delaying progression by 2 levels for no reason.
My exact thoughts. This isn't overpowered because it's nothing the classes can't do anyways.

RobbyPants

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2010, 12:37:34 PM »
It's hit and miss.  Basically, this guy plays like a wizard (hangs back and casts spells) with a lot of versatility and spells per day.  The downside is that you're one full spell level behind your full casters buddies.  That being said, you'll have various degrees of effectiveness compared to your friends:

Level 1:
You're a full caster on even footing.  Nuff said.


Level 2:
Your BAB sucks, but you have lots of spells per day.  Everyone's still using 1st level spells at this point.


Level 3-4:
You have a lot of 1st level spells, your BAB is still 0, but your buddies are casting second level spells.  Second level spells are awesome compared to 1st level, so you've fallen behind at this point.


Level 5-6:
You now got 2nd level spells (and a lot of them) and your buddies have 3rd level spells.  I'd say you're roughly even at this point.  You don't get a lot of gems with 3rd level spells the way you do with 2nd level.  There are a few goodies, but I'd say the extra 2nd level spells win out here.


Level 7-8:
You fell behind hardcore here.  Your buddies have 4th level spells, and 4th level spells rock the socks off encounters.  They can flat-out win encounters in ways you just can't.


Level 9-10:
You've got 4th level spells and now you're going to be awesome, but your buddies are getting into SoD territory and can Quicken spells.  They'll win out on action economy, but I don't consider this to be as bad as when you were 7th or 8th level.


Level 11-12:
This is similar to the last two levels.  Your buddies have some awesome new tricks, but you've picked up some goodies.  You can quicken a lot and you've got a lot of SoDs.


Level 13-14:
They get 7th level and you have 6th.  Compared to what you get at 4th - 6th level spells at each increase, 7th level is more lackluster.  I'm not saying 7th level spells suck, but a lot of them do.  I think they're on closer footing now.


Level 15-16:
Your firends have 8th level spells and you just fell behind again.


Level 17-19:
Your friends have 9th level spells and you're still behind.


Level 20:
You're now flat-out better than your buddies because you have everything they do, and a lot more of it.



Overall:
I'd say about a third of the time (if you play from level 1 to 20), you'll be on par or ahead of your peers.  The one thing that keeps this class from being better is the assumption of you being a sorcerer and not a wizard.  This keeps you from quickening your arcane spells, and that sucks.
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Phoenix00

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 12:54:36 PM »
This is how my above prestige class would work with total spells per day assuming you start with an
18 int and you get your +Int Magical Items at levels 7,11,14 and your Tome of +5 at level 18
Assumming you take your classes order as
Cloistered Cleric 1
Wizard 1
Druid 1
Followed by 17 levels in the prestige class
Assumming you will take academic priest for Cleric and Druid at level 1 (using int for bonus spells from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book Legends of the Twins).

This is compared to a generalist wizard vs your Cloistered Cleric/Wizard/Druid progression
Underline means you are spells per day behind of that level compared to a generalist wizard
Bold means you are spells per day ahead of a generalist wizard
   Lvl         1            2            3            4            5            6            7            8            9      
   1         +1      
   -2         +2      
   -3         +4            -2      
   -4         +6            -3      
   5         +6            +4            -2      
   6         +8            +5            -3      
   7         +10            +6            -3            -2      
   8         +10            +8            +3            -3      
   9         +10            +10            +6            -3            -2      
   10         +13            +10            +6            +3            -3      
   11         +13            +10            +9            +5            -3            -2      
   12         +13            +11            +10            +6            -4            -3      
   13         +13            +13            +10            +5            +3            -3            -2      
   14         +13            +13            +10            +10            +6            -4            -3      
   15         +15            +13            +13            +10            +5            +3            -3            -2      
   16         +17            +13            +13            +10            +9            +5            -4            -3      
   17         +17            +14            +13            +11            +10            +5            -4            -3            -2      
   18         +17            +17            +15            +13            +10            +7            +5            -4            -3      
   19         +17            +17            +15            +13            +10            +10            +7            -4            -4      
   20         +17            +17            +17            +15            +13            +10            +7            +4            -5      

Ramaloke

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 12:59:03 PM »
I think it would be less powerful if it advanced Archivist casting, Druid casting and Sorcerer casting, that way all of your mental stats are important and you suffer from serious MAD.
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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 02:16:18 PM »
Alright, slightly off topic, but this reminds me of a question I had; can you advance Prestige class spellcasting, if that spellcasting is itself only a progression for another class. By this I mean could you do this:

Wizard 1/Warlock 3/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 4/Eldritch Theurge 4/Mystic Theurge 5, with Eldritch Theurge advancing Wizard and Eldritch Disciple, and Mystic Theurge advancing Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple?

So you would get to be, in effect, a Warlock 16/Cleric 16/Wizard 10?

I would assume not, but since Eldrtch Theurge, let's say,advances Arcane Spellcasting, it is an arcane spellcasting class...
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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 02:40:45 PM »
I dont really see it as being broken. :pout I mean its really not much different than as psion with recharge or any number of spell matrix related shenanagins. Besides the fact you now have to have a high Int, Wis, and Charisma and Con if you expect to be able to survive a cold, You may have a veritable shit ton of spells but only so many actions per turn. (Generally anyway)

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2010, 03:23:29 PM »
Alright, slightly off topic, but this reminds me of a question I had; can you advance Prestige class spellcasting, if that spellcasting is itself only a progression for another class.

Nope. Sorry.

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Re: A Triple Casting Prestige Class
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2010, 03:31:41 PM »
...Why not just play an Archivist 20?

You can totally get all the good spells from everywhere with that, if your DM is relatively cooperative.
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