Psion vs Ardent?

[X-Codes]

OH! I see.  You're using that thing which is utterly and completely dependent on "DM's discretion," and praying like hell that the DM will just LET you get an infinite action loop off on a character that normally just can't do it.

If that's all that's needed to make an obnoxiously powerful character, then I've got this thing called an Arcane Swordsage I'd like you to look at...

[KellKheraptis]

OH! I see.  You're using that thing which is utterly and completely dependent on "DM's discretion," and praying like hell that the DM will just LET you get an infinite action loop off on a character that normally just can't do it.

If that's all that's needed to make an obnoxiously powerful character, then I've got this thing called an Arcane Swordsage I'd like you to look at...

I can get infinite actions without DI, dude.  First of all.  Secondly, if DI+Synchronicity is a go, infinite actions are set in stone RAW, up the game's ass sideways.  Look around, this is old hat.  And you are SO preaching to the wrong person about obnoxiously powerful characters, especially in the realm of the ASwSa.

Now, as I stated before, the OP is best off going with the Psion, unless he's wanting something specific, in which an ardent can take advantage of their unique power acquisition.

[X-Codes]

I'm well aware that infinite actions is possible without DI, but you can't do it the way you're intending to without running it by a DM.  Adding powers to a mantle REQUIRES DM fiat by RAW, and Synchronicity is not on *any* mantle.

[PhaedrusXY]

Here's my ardent/skillmonkey. Due to Ardent being more multiclassing friendly, I'd recommend it slightly over Psion. But only slightly. If you only plan to take say a level of rogue at 1st and Able Learner, Psion is probably better.

[Phoenix00]

On the subject of psionic gish consider these builds both are level 13 (I find it silly to do level 20 for most games don't reach level 20, level 13 is still high end but it will see actual play.)

Assuming partial bab and saves

The Psion Build
Barbarian 1 (for martial weapons, bab, rage, and pounce)
Psion 4
Ghostbreaker 5
Psionic Abjurant Champion 3

The Ardent Build
Barbarian 1 (for martial weapons, bab, rage, and pounce)
Ardent 4
Ghostbreaker 5
Psionic Abjurant Champion 3

For feats both take practiced manifester as well as combat casting (for psionic abjurant champion)

What the Ardent gets better
The Ardent is 4 hit points higher than the Psion
The Ardent has 12 BAB instead of 11
The Ardent has a 7th level power known and 1 6th level power known, the Psion has 3 6th level power known
The Ardent has 13 Powers Known   vs 24 Powers Known for the Psion.
Both have an effective manifester level of 13, with 12 levels invested in a psionic class.  Because of how the Ardent chooses powers the Ardent is 1 level ahead of the Psion
The Ardent knows 3 Psionic Mantles, if you take 1 more level of Ardent (instead of Ghostbreaker or Psionic Abjurant Champion) you will have 4 Psionic Mantles but your BAB will be 11 the same as the Psion Gish

What the Psion gets better
24 Powers Known.  Now this may not sound like a lot, but here is a good "general" list of psionic powers I find to be awesome for a gish
Vigor
Ego Whip
Share Pain
Time Hop
Dispel Psionics
Metamorphosis
Schism
Synchronicity
Sense Danger
A Teleport Power (your choice)
Psychic Reformation
Inertial Armor (if you do the Psionic Adaptation of Abjurant Champion it will make sense that this will get the AC bonus)
Psionic Revivify
Psionic Divination
Wall of Ectoplasm
Planeshift
Temporal Acceleration
Energy Wall

I just listed 18 awesome psionic powers from levels 1 to 6.  An Ardent whose character level is 13 and has taken a 1 level dip in a non psion advancing class, can only know 13 of those.  Furthermore if he wants to know something else he has to sacrifice another power from that list.  Now he can always take expanded knowledge and gain more powers known but that takes a feat slot and that too is a limited resource
A Psion on the other hand can take 17 of those powers without doing research (being an egoist based and then doing research or expanded knowledge to get schism).  He also has another 6 to 7 powers to spare to take other powers that you may like via character level 13 assuming a 1 level dip in a non psion advancing class.

---------------------------------------

Now dominant mantle is nice but that doesn't kick in till level 10 thus it is hard to make a gish with dominant mantle.  Dominant Mantles are more for caster based ardents.

[charleskoz]

Thanks very much for all the replies, interesting discussion.

We run a very "anti-cheese" campaign and also don't really use ACFs or online supplements much. This leaves me with pretty much the "stock" ardent, which is clearly quite a bit worse than a psion in most respects.

It also appears I'll be multiclassing with Beguiler, which suggests the Int-based psion would be better as well. But then I also want to play a pixie, and multiclassing while losing 4 levels is probably also unwise.

[awaken DM golem]

Talk about a Curve ball, to First base ?!
Carnivore has lots of Pixie builds. Ardent can be made to work with Pixie, but it's lots of work.


Beguiler 3 / Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester feat / Cerebremancer 8 then 9 then 10 / PrC X 5
where X can be any +1 Caster PrC, intermixed relative to the high end Psi-powers you want / have access to.
Max Int, shoot for 17 or 18 Wis.

Basically a Beguiler build, down 1 feat and 1 level of spells, traded for about half of Ph00's Psi-goodies.
Choose carefully 

[X-Codes]

What the Psion gets better
24 Powers Known.  Now this may not sound like a lot, but here is a good "general" list of psionic powers I find to be awesome for a gish
Vigor
Ego Whip
Share Pain
Time Hop
Dispel Psionics
Metamorphosis
Schism
Synchronicity
Sense Danger
A Teleport Power (your choice)
Psychic Reformation
Inertial Armor (if you do the Psionic Adaptation of Abjurant Champion it will make sense that this will get the AC bonus)
Psionic Revivify
Psionic Divination
Wall of Ectoplasm
Planeshift
Temporal Acceleration
Energy Wall

Bolded Strikes are powers that, while they may be nice, are by no means necessary to make an effective gish.  Some of these aren't even needed, either.  Only 1 person in a party needs actual Teleport or Plane Shift, although Dimension Door is a nice power for Gishes to have (especially if you link it to something).  Psionic Revivify is also completely unnecessary if someone else can prepare/cast Raise Dead or it's higher-end kin.  In that case, just keep a Power Stone of Psionic Revivify around on the off chance that guy bites it, and then have him do whatever other reviving you need.  Finally, I didn't strike Wall of Ectoplasm because I feel it represents the need to have a power that restricts the movement of the field, but IMO Wall of Ectoplasm is a rather mediocre player in that regard, making up for it, however, with a little versatility in other areas.

So that basically leaves 7 powers a really good Psi Gish has.  Ardents will have to do some manner of research for a few of them, but truth is they could just get 2 levels of Psychic Warrior to pick up some utility powers and bonus feats and then eat the level loss with Practiced Manifester.  Psions can't do that and remain effective.

[nijineko]

dominant ideal with metapower would be quite fun.

[Phoenix00]

Bolded Strikes are powers that, while they may be nice, are by no means necessary to make an effective gish.  Some of these aren't even needed, either.  Only 1 person in a party needs actual Teleport or Plane Shift, although Dimension Door is a nice power for Gishes to have (especially if you link it to something).  Psionic Revivify is also completely unnecessary if someone else can prepare/cast Raise Dead or it's higher-end kin.  In that case, just keep a Power Stone of Psionic Revivify around on the off chance that guy bites it, and then have him do whatever other reviving you need.  Finally, I didn't strike Wall of Ectoplasm because I feel it represents the need to have a power that restricts the movement of the field, but IMO Wall of Ectoplasm is a rather mediocre player in that regard, making up for it, however, with a little versatility in other areas.

So that basically leaves 7 powers a really good Psi Gish has.  Ardents will have to do some manner of research for a few of them, but truth is they could just get 2 levels of Psychic Warrior to pick up some utility powers and bonus feats and then eat the level loss with Practiced Manifester.  Psions can't do that and remain effective.

What you are describing isn't what I describe as a gish, what you are describing is melee with some magical abilities.  Aka no better than a martial adept from Tome of Battle.  A gish in my mind is someone who can be a spellcaster and be a melee person.   Maybe not as well as a specialist, but seriously can throw out some magic out there if he really has too.  A true spellcaster (in my mind) always has a way to cast dispel magic or produce a similar effect (through class feats or magic items.)  If you can't even do the basic like that you are a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself. (not that there is anything wrong with being a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself.)

Whatever floats your boat, but I wouldn't consider what you are describing as a gish, it is more a martial adept.

[X-Codes]

Bolded Strikes are powers that, while they may be nice, are by no means necessary to make an effective gish.  Some of these aren't even needed, either.  Only 1 person in a party needs actual Teleport or Plane Shift, although Dimension Door is a nice power for Gishes to have (especially if you link it to something).  Psionic Revivify is also completely unnecessary if someone else can prepare/cast Raise Dead or it's higher-end kin.  In that case, just keep a Power Stone of Psionic Revivify around on the off chance that guy bites it, and then have him do whatever other reviving you need.  Finally, I didn't strike Wall of Ectoplasm because I feel it represents the need to have a power that restricts the movement of the field, but IMO Wall of Ectoplasm is a rather mediocre player in that regard, making up for it, however, with a little versatility in other areas.

So that basically leaves 7 powers a really good Psi Gish has.  Ardents will have to do some manner of research for a few of them, but truth is they could just get 2 levels of Psychic Warrior to pick up some utility powers and bonus feats and then eat the level loss with Practiced Manifester.  Psions can't do that and remain effective.

What you are describing isn't what I describe as a gish, what you are describing is melee with some magical abilities.  Aka no better than a martial adept from Tome of Battle.  A gish in my mind is someone who can be a spellcaster and be a melee person.   Maybe not as well as a specialist, but seriously can throw out some magic out there if he really has too.  A true spellcaster (in my mind) always has a way to cast dispel magic or produce a similar effect (through class feats or magic items.)  If you can't even do the basic like that you are a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself. (not that there is anything wrong with being a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself.)

Whatever floats your boat, but I wouldn't consider what you are describing as a gish, it is more a martial adept.

What the hell does having Psychic Reformation around 24/7 have to do with being a Spellcaster?  If you manifest that power more than once or twice during your career then you're doing something seriously wrong with building your character.  It's even more true for Psionic Revivify.

Oh, and Dispel Magic and similar effects are, by far, the worst waste of an action, EVER.  If your enemy throws up a spell that makes them immune to Acid damage, then just kill them with FIRE.  If they throw up a spell that lets them fly, shoot them with a bow!

Another thing is that Gishes don't have the same PP that full manifesters do.  Ego Whip is an amazing power in the hands of a full manifester, but I'd be shocked to see a gish do anything decent with it.  Full manifesters can dedicate more resources to boosting the DC of the power and have the PP to cast it repeatedly, but Gishes have the luxury of neither.  Gishes also don't have the power points to invest in Sense Danger, which requires you to invest power points in it in order to have the option of spending more power points later.

Finally, powers like Inertial Armor and Psionic Divination just plain suck.  Mage Armor is a staple wizard spell because Wizards can't cast in armor (without spending way too much money on it, at least).  Psions can manifest in armor, so having a spell that gives them 0% ACF armor is a complete waste of time.  Just throw on the full plate and deal.  Further, Psionic Divination has a 10% chance of doing nothing at all, and a 90% chance of doing something that might be useful to you at some point in time if you had an important enough question to ask about it in the first place.

[Bauglir]

Bolded Strikes are powers that, while they may be nice, are by no means necessary to make an effective gish.  Some of these aren't even needed, either.  Only 1 person in a party needs actual Teleport or Plane Shift, although Dimension Door is a nice power for Gishes to have (especially if you link it to something).  Psionic Revivify is also completely unnecessary if someone else can prepare/cast Raise Dead or it's higher-end kin.  In that case, just keep a Power Stone of Psionic Revivify around on the off chance that guy bites it, and then have him do whatever other reviving you need.  Finally, I didn't strike Wall of Ectoplasm because I feel it represents the need to have a power that restricts the movement of the field, but IMO Wall of Ectoplasm is a rather mediocre player in that regard, making up for it, however, with a little versatility in other areas.

So that basically leaves 7 powers a really good Psi Gish has.  Ardents will have to do some manner of research for a few of them, but truth is they could just get 2 levels of Psychic Warrior to pick up some utility powers and bonus feats and then eat the level loss with Practiced Manifester.  Psions can't do that and remain effective.

What you are describing isn't what I describe as a gish, what you are describing is melee with some magical abilities.  Aka no better than a martial adept from Tome of Battle.  A gish in my mind is someone who can be a spellcaster and be a melee person.   Maybe not as well as a specialist, but seriously can throw out some magic out there if he really has too.  A true spellcaster (in my mind) always has a way to cast dispel magic or produce a similar effect (through class feats or magic items.)  If you can't even do the basic like that you are a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself. (not that there is anything wrong with being a glorified beat stick that can cast fly on himself.)

Whatever floats your boat, but I wouldn't consider what you are describing as a gish, it is more a martial adept.

What the hell does having Psychic Reformation around 24/7 have to do with being a Spellcaster?  If you manifest that power more than once or twice during your career then you're doing something seriously wrong with building your character.  It's even more true for Psionic Revivify.

Oh, and Dispel Magic and similar effects are, by far, the worst waste of an action, EVER.  If your enemy throws up a spell that makes them immune to Acid damage, then just kill them with FIRE.  If they throw up a spell that lets them fly, shoot them with a bow!

Another thing is that Gishes don't have the same PP that full manifesters do.  Ego Whip is an amazing power in the hands of a full manifester, but I'd be shocked to see a gish do anything decent with it.  Full manifesters can dedicate more resources to boosting the DC of the power and have the PP to cast it repeatedly, but Gishes have the luxury of neither.  Gishes also don't have the power points to invest in Sense Danger, which requires you to invest power points in it in order to have the option of spending more power points later.

Finally, powers like Inertial Armor and Psionic Divination just plain suck.  Mage Armor is a staple wizard spell because Wizards can't cast in armor (without spending way too much money on it, at least).  Psions can manifest in armor, so having a spell that gives them 0% ACF armor is a complete waste of time.  Just throw on the full plate and deal.  Further, Psionic Divination has a 10% chance of doing nothing at all, and a 90% chance of doing something that might be useful to you at some point in time if you had an important enough question to ask about it in the first place.

Re: Dispel. It's a waste of actions in a typical campaign, when enemies tend not to have many buffs up at once and those they do are often cast in-combat where the action economy is a problem. In a sufficiently high-optimization campaign, however, it actually can become useful because casters frequently have a great many buffs up at a time (targeted hits all of them, although it's hell on the actual table because of the time it takes to roll all those checks) and because several extremely powerful builds rely on one or two effects as keys to uberpower because those specific effects were written really badly. Fusion and Shapechange are the first examples that come to mind. Plus, higher optimization campaigns tend to have at least minor action economy shenanigans going, so losing a standard action becomes less of a loss (although almost never insignificant, losing 1 standard action is less of a problem when you have 2 than when you only have 1).