Author Topic: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?  (Read 8707 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2010, 12:01:42 PM »
He says he doesn't post on the PF boards.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2010, 12:20:57 PM »
The Pathfinder campaign world fluff sounds pretty cool, though.  ;)

You consider fuck you, suck devil/dragon/aboleth cock to be cool?

How doesn't it bias things towards casters?
This guy sounds familiar. Is that you, Squelch?

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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2010, 12:32:12 PM »
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:34:17 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2010, 12:36:52 PM »
Ack, a Beholder!

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I approve of this message. It has been brought to you by your local Sainpidity Super Store. All purchases are final.

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I see what you did there.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2010, 12:40:25 PM »
I'm not talking about 3rd party splats.  I'm talking about official WotC published products.

When you talk about Wizards stuff being used in Pathfinder, you are definitionally talking about third-party material. Paizo is the first party, you are the second party, WotC is the third party.


Quote
Let me get this straight.  So, they rewrite the PHB (open content), so it's obviously not backward compatible with with the 3.5 PHB.  It's been replaced.  All of the other books are non-OGL, which they can't touch.  What's left to be backward compatible with?  Seriously?

They rewrote the OGL stuff, so you aren't going to be using any of the "core" 3.5 books.  So they're claiming you can use those other non-OGL books and saying that works.  What definition are you using?

Just because something mechanically "works" with 3.5 (or mechanically "works" with Pathfinder) doesn't mean it's not broken. Five minutes browsing just about any homebrew forum makes that clear. The backwards compatibility of Pathfinder is that it is extremely simple to port material forward from 3.5 to Pathfinder. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. If it runs in 3.5, it'll run in Pathfinder with a minimum of changes, but Pathfinder won't magically make it less broken.

The "promise" you claim they have broken: "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has been designed with compatibility with previous editions in mind, so you'll be able to use your existing library of 3.5 products with minimal effort."

Note an absence of "also, the incredibly broken shit that Wizards regularly put into its books due to lack of playtesting, lack of knowledge about how the game works, or other factors will magically fix itself". You can use your existing library with minimal effort, and it will be about as good or bad as it was before. It's just that pretty much every Wizards sourcebook included at least one thing that was either incredibly broken on its own or had broken interactions with material in another sourcebook, and people justified it on the basis of "well, core is already broken beyond all belief anyway, so it doesn't matter if sourcebooks layer on more broken nonsense".


And when you actually get to the spells themselves some of them are nerfed, but mostly in meaningless ways. The ones that actually were nerfed were quite meaningless on a power scale of things. None of this matters though, as you still have at least 1 good spell at each level meaning you're no less effective, just less interesting.

This right here is the crux of the problem. The attempt was made to nerf wizards in the spell lists, but the guys doing the nerfing showed an extremely poor understanding of what actually needed nerfing about wizards and so the only meaningful spell that got hit in a significant way was Polymorph. It was a pretty good nerf to Polymorph, but that's one hit and a lot of misses. Beyond that they nerfed some spells that didn't need nerfing, didn't nerf a lot of spells that needed it, and nerfed other spells in essentially meaningless ways.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:45:06 PM by Benly »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2010, 12:45:50 PM »
Benly,

Take your core is fine, non core is broken and burn it until nothing remains but fine ash. Thanks for cooperating with the National Society for the Prevention of Dumbfuckery (NSPD).

How does Pathfinder bias things toward casters?

How doesn't it bias things towards casters?

Facetious response aside, let me count the ways.

Let's start with character creation, because Pathfinder makes it real clear like before you have even made a caster that you should make a caster and only a caster. You just have to listen.

So let's say you want to be a Wizard. +1 HP/level, just for existing.

You then start assigning stats. Upon looking at the point buy system for more than about 15 seconds you realize it is heavily biased towards Single Attribute Dependent characters. Aka, you. So you take an 18 Int and 16 Con, offsetting it with 1 or more meaningless 7s and 8s. Now you might argue that the 3.5 PB system was also favored towards SAD characters. You'd be right. But the PF PB system is more biased in that regard.

So while the 3.5 Wizard would only be running a 14 Con, the PF Wizard can easily run 16.

+2 HP/level, and you haven't even actually done anything yet.

Then you pick your race. Several races give you a +2 in whatever you want, and one of these is clearly better than the others so you take a human, with +2 Int. You might argue that there were already +2 Int races in 3.5, but those were non core and had drawbacks that made them not really worth it. Gimpy Elves are Gimpy.

+2 HP/level and +1 save DCs.

So then you get to the favored class mechanic. Every time you take a level of your favored class you get 1 HP or 1 skill point. The favored class can't be changed, but the bonus can be different level to level. Of course one of these is clearly better than the others.

Obviously, this system only makes a real difference for classes that don't have to multiclass or PRC to be viable. While a Wizard can PRC if he wants to, it is by no means necessary.

+3 HP/level and +1 save DCs.

And then you look at the other stuff. Now some of the class features are very obvious traps like "flail for the piddly shit of 2d4+half level". But because they are very obvious traps, you just continue reading as if they don't exist. And there are other things in there like "You get large bonuses to Initiative and always act in the surprise round. PS: Fuck you beatsticks."

And when you actually get to the spells themselves some of them are nerfed, but mostly in meaningless ways. The ones that actually were nerfed were quite meaningless on a power scale of things. None of this matters though, as you still have at least 1 good spell at each level meaning you're no less effective, just less interesting. And this is without just saying fuck it and importing 3.5 spells.

So then you look at what you're up against enemy wise. Now there's this bit in the PF books that says something to the effect of "You don't need +x stat items to stay on the RNG, so don't feel compelled to give them to everything. Instead give them cool but useless items". Of course this is a blatant lie, but if your DM actually buys that your enemies will all have pathetic saves, allowing your +1 DCs (more, if you use feats on Spell Focus and such) to mow them down like the useless mooks they are. Obviously, the DM should not actually do this and if he is remotely intelligent he won't. But we're discussing Pathfinder, so there is at least a 50% chance he will. Giant type enemies are now considered a subtype of humanoids, so have fun blowing away Ogres, Trolls, and actual Giants with much less resource expenditure.

Dispel? Went from a serious threat to your buffed up run to completely trivial. A 3.5 character has to think carefully about how they will deal with suddenly having their stats cut in half from losing all their buffs. The PF character loses 1-5 buffs at most depending on which Dispel is thrown and what its CL is. Except he doesn't, because that change means Dispel is so worthless it joins the ranks of other fail spells like Evocation.

Clearly, the stage is set for you to just own everything as a caster even more than you could in 3.5.

So what happens if you don't heed the obvious warnings and opt for a beatstick instead?

Let's walk through the process.

You decide you want to be a Fighter. No HP boost, because fuck you.

You then start assigning stats. Remember how the PB system was biased in favor of SAD characters? It's biased at least as strongly against MAD characters. Nowhere to put those meaningless 7s and 8s you see. Good luck even getting 18 Str, 14 Con, and the other important stats over fail levels.

You're still not any better off than you were in 3.5, and you're actually a bit worse.

Then you pick your race. Of course you go for +2 Str. But as you could already get a +2 Str race in 3.5 core, this makes no real difference.

Still no better off and actually a bit worse.

Then you get to the favored class mechanic. You know, that thing that rewards pure class characters? Well you're a beatstick, so you're going to be multiclassing and PRCing like crazy just to try and stay relevant. +1 HP/level will not stop you from being a fail character.

And then you look at the other stuff. Most of the traps here are not so obvious but they are even more common. In fact there are more traps in here than a tranny bar. :lmao

But seriously. Vital Strike line is a trap, the whole Critical based line is a trap, the net effect of attempting a maneuver in PF is that you fail to perform that maneuver in PF so those lines are traps, the Whirlwind attack line is a trap (which shouldn't surprise anyone), the Cleave line is a trap, the TWF line is a trap... It's like playing Minesweeper where 90% of the squares have a fucking bomb under them. Can't even move without blowing yourself up. What's the point of having more feats when there's so few feats worth taking and so many feats have been heavily nerfed? Even the old standbys no longer work. Improved Trip doesn't because it's a maneuver and therefore fails, because you lose the free attack, and because the Spiked Chain got nerfed for no discernable reason. Power Attack also got nerfed hard, and unless you're a retard who thinks that 14 is a larger number than 48 you'll realize this. Yes, some dumbfuck over there was actually saying this. Repeatedly.

This of course means your only option is to auto attack for piddly shit, and get put out of your misery in two rounds only to come back with a real character and enjoy your Caster Edition. Oh, they'll try to distract you from this with meaningless fluff features like "an AC that still gets auto hit, so you don't care" and "lol +saves against fear" but that's like offering someone a lollipop as consolation after raping them. You're not going to accomplish anything but making the situation worse and you should have never done such a terrible thing (making beatsticks fail even harder) in the first place.

You can't even bring in 3.5 stuff to save them as Leap Attack, Shock Trooper etc are still hamstrung by the gimped out PA.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Benly

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2010, 12:51:54 PM »
Benly,

Take your core is fine, non core is broken and burn it until nothing remains but fine ash. Thanks for cooperating with the National Society for the Prevention of Dumbfuckery (NSPD).

Um, thanks, but when did I say that core was fine? I even mentioned that core is broken beyond all belief, and that's why nobody gave a shit if noncore was broken too.

The goal of Pathfinder (which they basically failed at) was to try to make a non-broken core, and they made.. a slightly less broken one that's still pretty broken. Calling them out on that failure is fine. Calling them out on the failure to also magically unbreak noncore is just stupid as hell.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:53:29 PM by Benly »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 12:55:13 PM »
Benly,

Take your core is fine, non core is broken and burn it until nothing remains but fine ash. Thanks for cooperating with the National Society for the Prevention of Dumbfuckery (NSPD).

Um, thanks, but when did I say that core was fine? I even mentioned that core is broken beyond all belief, and that's why nobody gave a shit if noncore was broken too.

(Note that none of this applies when you're talking about also letting in all 3.5 sourcebooks; if you do that, obviously all their brokenness comes with them. The most ludicrous claim I have heard in this regard is "nerfing polymorph doesn't change anything, because players will just take Draconic Polymorph instead!" When Pathfinder is under discussion, WOTC sourcebooks become questionable third-party material requiring DM inspection and vetting.)

Heavily implied core is fine, non core isn't.

Quote
The goal of Pathfinder (which they basically failed at) was to try to make a non-broken core, and they made.. a significantly more broken one. Calling them out on that failure is fine. Calling them out on the failure to also magically unbreak noncore is just stupid as hell.

Fixed.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 12:55:45 PM »
I'm not talking about 3rd party splats.  I'm talking about official WotC published products.

When you talk about Wizards stuff being used in Pathfinder, you are definitionally talking about third-party material. Paizo is the first party, you are the second party, WotC is the third party.
But WotC didn't claim to be compatible with whatever 3rd party publishers put out.  Paizo did.

I know we agree at the heart and soul of this issue.  No one thinks that it's a good idea to bring a Spell Compendium to the table of a PF game.  It's just that Paizo tried to claim like it was somehow okay, even though everyone knows it isn't.  They're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having their super speshul selling point of backward compatibility, and they expect the DM to have enough common sense to filter through all of the stuff and see what actually works.


I'm not saying this like 3.5 isn't broken or anything.  I'm just as pissed at some of the stuff spewed by WotC to say that their own game isn't broken.  It's not like PF is unique in this or anything.  I just don't like that they made a claim that by it's very definition is false.  It's not that I'm mad that they lied.  They basically pulled the opposite of a tautology.
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Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 01:00:40 PM »
Ack, a Beholder!

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 01:02:05 PM »
Ack, a Beholder!

*circle strafes, Finger of Deaths*
I approve of this message. It has been brought to you by your local Sainpidity Super Store. All purchases are final.

You make a Google-Fu check. You roll a 20: Success!

I see what you did there.
my sig > yours

Hi Welcome
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 01:02:37 PM »
They basically pulled the opposite of a tautology.

I believe the term used in logic is "contradiction".
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Benly

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2010, 01:04:54 PM »
Um, thanks, but when did I say that core was fine? I even mentioned that core is broken beyond all belief, and that's why nobody gave a shit if noncore was broken too.

(Note that none of this applies when you're talking about also letting in all 3.5 sourcebooks; if you do that, obviously all their brokenness comes with them. The most ludicrous claim I have heard in this regard is "nerfing polymorph doesn't change anything, because players will just take Draconic Polymorph instead!" When Pathfinder is under discussion, WOTC sourcebooks become questionable third-party material requiring DM inspection and vetting.)

Heavily implied core is fine, non core isn't.

You're reading a lot into that which isn't there. My point is that noncore is just as broken as core (which, if you missed it the first couple times, is broken) and letting it in undoes any gains made from trying to unbreak core. Draconic Polymorph is a broken spell, and nobody cares because regular Polymorph is just as broken and core. Celerity is a broken spell, and nobody cares because Time Stop is broken and core. Nerveskitter is a broken spell, and nobody cares because Contact Other Plane can be interpreted as letting you know when you'll get into each fight that day anyway, and is core. If you fix all the core spells (which, well, Pathfinder didn't) then letting in the noncore spells undoes that progress unless you fix them too.

Quote
Quote
The goal of Pathfinder (which they basically failed at) was to try to make a non-broken core, and they made.. a significantly more broken one. Calling them out on that failure is fine. Calling them out on the failure to also magically unbreak noncore is just stupid as hell.

Fixed.

Disagreed, but I'm pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on that. I feel that in general the buffs PF gave spellcasters are not as significant as the nerfs - it's just that neither is enough to make a huge difference, with the net result being an extremely incremental movement in the right direction.

I'm going to clarify this: I don't think making spellcasters "stronger" in certain ways makes them inherently more broken. The thing is, what makes wizards broken is that they are playing an entirely different game from other characters, and their game always wins. Call it the wizard game and the fighter game. Giving them more hit points is an advancement in the fighter game. Taking away Polymorph is a small step back in the wizard game. Making defensive casting harder is a small step back in the wizard game. Weakening the wizard game and strengthening wizards in the fighter game makes them less broken - it just doesn't make them enough less broken, not by a long shot.

I know we agree at the heart and soul of this issue.  No one thinks that it's a good idea to bring a Spell Compendium to the table of a PF game.  It's just that Paizo tried to claim like it was somehow okay, even though everyone knows it isn't.  They're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having their super speshul selling point of backward compatibility, and they expect the DM to have enough common sense to filter through all of the stuff and see what actually works.


I'm not saying this like 3.5 isn't broken or anything.  I'm just as pissed at some of the stuff spewed by WotC to say that their own game isn't broken.  It's not like PF is unique in this or anything.  I just don't like that they made a claim that by it's very definition is false.  It's not that I'm mad that they lied.  They basically pulled the opposite of a tautology.

Where we disagree is what you believe "backwards compatibility" to mean. You seem to think it should mean "putting this stuff into your PF campaign will be a great idea and have no repercussions". What it means is "you can port this to Pathfinder with minimal conversions and it'll work about like it ever did" and, well, that's a claim it lives up to. It's just that pretty much every WotC product, core or noncore, had at least a few elements where "about like it ever did" was always broken and nobody cared because core is broken. A system that is perfectly backwards-compatible with a broken piece of crap will run it perfectly, and it will be exactly as broken a piece of crap as it ever was.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 01:09:40 PM by Benly »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2010, 01:14:21 PM »
Disagreed, but I'm pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on that. I feel that in general the buffs PF gave spellcasters are not as significant as the nerfs - it's just that neither is enough to make a huge difference, with the net result being an extremely incremental movement in the right direction.

Buffs: +3 HP a level for free, at least +1 spell DC for free, ability to cherry pick abilities like 'always act in surprise round, initiative bonus' out of fields of clearly marked traps.

Nerfs: You still have save or loses. So there aren't any worth mentioning.

Quote
I'm going to clarify this: I don't think making spellcasters "stronger" in certain ways makes them inherently more broken. The thing is, what makes wizards broken is that they are playing an entirely different game from other characters, and their game always wins. Call it the wizard game and the fighter game. Giving them more hit points is an advancement in the fighter game. Taking away Polymorph is a small step back in the wizard game. Making defensive casting harder is a small step back in the wizard game. Weakening the wizard game and strengthening wizards in the fighter game makes them less broken - it just doesn't make them enough less broken, not by a long shot.

+3 HP per level means they have the same or more HP than the Fighter. While also having better defenses. And offenses.

And since the spiked chain got nerfed, there is always 5 foot steps.
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Benly

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • Email
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2010, 01:17:45 PM »
Sunic, as I have said I am pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on this particular aspect. I'm not going to argue with you because I'm pretty sure no amount of arguing will change either of our positions on the subject: each of us has laid out our stances quite clearly to the other, and the other person said "no, I disagree". That's fine, and sometimes that happens, and not every disagreement has to end with someone converting like Paul on the road to Damascus or else dying in a ditch. Not even on the Internet. :)

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2010, 01:19:23 PM »


PS-I am just as guilty at this as anybody.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2010, 01:37:16 PM »


PS-I am just as guilty at this as anybody.

I know right?

This deserves a funny picture of a cat, but I can't find it and don't feel like remaking it.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2010, 01:40:08 PM »
Sunic, as I have said I am pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on this particular aspect. I'm not going to argue with you because I'm pretty sure no amount of arguing will change either of our positions on the subject: each of us has laid out our stances quite clearly to the other, and the other person said "no, I disagree". That's fine, and sometimes that happens, and not every disagreement has to end with someone converting like Paul on the road to Damascus or else dying in a ditch. Not even on the Internet. :)



Obvious Cop Out is Obvious.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Benly

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • Email
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2010, 01:46:15 PM »
Obvious Cop Out is Obvious.

..thank you for raising the level of discourse here?

Like I said, we both laid out our points and we each reviewed the other's points and said "no, I disagree". Do you think that yelling at each other over and over "NO, YOU ARE WRONG, STOP BEING WRONG" is going to change that? Because I can do that if it helps you get your jollies, but I don't really see the point of it.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »
Obvious Cop Out is Obvious.

..thank you for raising the level of discourse here?

Like I said, we both laid out our points and we each reviewed the other's points and said "no, I disagree". Do you think that yelling at each other over and over "NO, YOU ARE WRONG, STOP BEING WRONG" is going to change that? Because I can do that if it helps you get your jollies, but I don't really see the point of it.

I just wanted to post a picture of a cat flipping someone off.

Hi Welcome
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]