Author Topic: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?  (Read 8702 times)

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Endarire

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How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« on: October 12, 2010, 07:09:07 AM »
(This post was heavily inspired by a DM who complained that Evard's black tentacles made things way too easy, though in our defense, he herded the enemies into a small space.  Most of our work was done for us.

Also, Giant in the Playground has this thread too.)

The post's title may be misleading.  I don't necessarily mean campaigns that begin at ECL7; however, I've noticed that once casters start doing things level 7 casters are expected to do, things change.

By level 7 (spell level 4), people have (almost) outgrown their 'normal' capacities.  Spells in general are the focus of this post, since they're the biggest spikes in power.  In general, I'll stick to core examples since they're the most common (and open content; yay!), and because they're an assumed part of every 3.P game.

Dimension door, polymorph, minor creation, Evard's black tentacles, scrying, divine power, freedom of movement, and death ward are perhaps the most famous and most potent level 4 spells, and things escalate from here.

Also, a Druid8 can turn into a Dire Lion with pounce.  Assuming core only, a well-built Barbarian may be able to keep up damage-wise.  With splat, a well-built Barbarian can pull -far- ahead damage-wise, but still can't turn into a bear who summons bears, calls down lightning, heals people, and safely hugs people while coated in black lotus extract.

Character level 9 (spell level 5) bring us raise dead, lesser planar binding, teleport, wall of force, telekinesis, magic jar, righteous might, dominate person, contact other plane, fabricate, plane shift (Cleric), true seeing (Cleric), and others have a great potential to make a single-classed caster a one-man army.  A caster could also prepare Quickened level 1 spells in level 5 slots, however likely that is to occur.

From my experience, most campaigns don't last past level 10.  In the off chance yours does, consider the following information.

Character level 11 (spell level 6) adds to our abilities antimagic field (Wizard), flesh to stone, contingency, greater dispel magic, harm, heal, and Quickened L2 spells, like Quickened glitterdust or a Quickened web.  Pickins are slim at this level, but you can still use your level 6 slots for level 5 spells.

Things escalate from here, and we're only at character level 13!  Level 7 Wizard spells are a revolution akin to how level 4 spells and level 9 spells are.  In this list, we have blasphemy/holy word/cloak of chaos/dictum, plane shift (Wizard), spell turning, forcecage, simulacrum, project image, reverse gravity, and limited wish.  "Democracy" means a lot less when you can trap them in a forcecage for 2 hours per level.  Non-flyers -die- to reverse gravity.  Make a simulacrum of an efreeti for wishes.  Yeah.

Level 8 spells aren't that much better than 7s, but I'll certainly take maze, prismatic wall, mind blank, greater shadow evocation, clone, and polymorph any object.  If I banned Evocation, go go shadow contingency!  If I feel like riding the RAW, PAO myself twice into a planetar and have Cleric casting too, not that I condone this polymorph interpretation.

We're probably well famililar with level 9 spells, at least in name.  If done properly, each level 9 spell can drastically change the world.  Maybe not prismatic sphere, true resurrection, or meteor swarm, but definitely gate, shapechange, and TIME STOP.  NOTE THE CAPS.  THE SPELL IS THAT GOOD.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

LordBlades

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 07:47:27 AM »
I have quite some experience in mid level campaigns (we usually start around lvl 4-5 and campaigns go until around lvl 12 to 15).

However, I must say that all my group knows what they are getting into. We all have at least decent optimization knowledge and know that power gaming is almost all about spells. For example, nobody in my group will try and play a rogue/assasin and not expect to be completely overshadowed by a full wizard. We also enjoy playing pretty high powered games (our current lvl 6 party has gray elf dragonoborn wizard5/incantatrix 1, human cleric 4/ordained champion 2, tiefling wizard 5/eldritch knight 1, kalashtar cloistered cleric 3/ardent 1/psychic theurge 2 and spelslcale factotum 1/bard 5, going for sublime chord).

All in all, these are my conclusions about this range of play and power levels:

1. It's all about battlefield control. Most of the battles past lvl 7 or so  are decided by the amount of battlefield control spells/ways of resisitng or escaping enemy battlefield control spells a party has.
2. There are very few non-casting builds that can hold their own in these conditions. We've played with charging builds in party, and they can be devastating under the right circumstances, but it's still up to the party wizard to make sure these 'right circumstances' occur.
3. Saves are your friend, especially Fort and Will. Most nasty save-or-suck spells target one of those, and you don't wat to suck in the decisive battles. Most of the successful builds we've played have had very good fort and Will saves. Of course, you can ignore a save if you have ways to be immune to most effects targeting it  ;)
4. Always have an escape method. Even the most carefully laid out plans can go wrong. and when they do, it's best to have a way of eitehr getting out, or relocating to a more advantageous position on the battlefield. The most simplemethods include potions of Gaseous Form or Psionic Tatoss of Ectoplasmic Form, but Dimension Door, teleport and similar powers or SLAs are the best here.

RobbyPants

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 10:00:50 AM »
You left of Solid Fog on level 4, which is nice because it's no-save, no-SR, which makes it hard to avoid.

That being said: as a DM, you need to make it clear to the players what the game will be like at this point.  They either all need access to magic or they need to be playing something else to justify a spot at that table with the casters.  A common trick for DMs around this point is to start handing out WBL-breaking DM-pity artifact swords to the non-casters.  This works, so long as the player is cool with realizing that over half of their PC's power comes from the fact that they have "Sword of Kas" written on the back of their character sheet more than the fact that they have "Fighter" written on the front.

As for DMs handling stuff: the game has fundamentally changed.  Things like locked doors (even trapped locked doors), walls, and chasms are no longer meaningful challenges.  They might be speed bumps, but don't expect them to constitute an "encounter" anymore.  It's important for the DM to let go of some of these lower level things and to accept these changes.  That right there makes the transition easier.  You still have to deal with crap like Scry-and-die, but there are ways around that.  A house-rule implemented by the Tome series is that 40 feet of solid material block Scry and long-range Teleport spells.  This actually gives a viable reason for dudes to have safe havens in dungeons.

At high levels, I honestly just don't care anymore.  I've never run anything past 15th level, and I start to notice the issues around 12th.  The game has entered full fledged rocket tag, and it's very hard for me, as a DM, to make a challenging encounter that isn't either a cake-walk or a TPK.  I'm sure there are ways to pull it off, but I don't know any of them. :p
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LordBlades

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 11:05:10 AM »
IMHO, high level (15+) DnD is so offenisvely oriented that a high level caster duel simply goes down to 'win initiative or die'

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 11:24:27 AM »
Accept that not all enemy types can pull their weight, regardless of what the CR says. Dumb brutes are going to be Will saved out of the fight at any level.

The only thing that can keep up with casters is other casters. Have the opposition reflect this. Have the very world reflect it. People in high positions have levels and casting ability. It's just how things are.

Magic is power. Your effectiveness as a party is directly proportional to the number of save or loses you can throw in a round and your enemies' threat level is directly proportional to the same. Those other guys? Not even a factor.

Doesn't matter if its 3rd, 3.5, or PF. All that changes is which save or loses work, and how effective they are. It's interesting to point out though PF is the most biased towards spellcasters.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 12:10:39 PM »
The tier system is made for things like this.

The simple solution would be to ban the tier 1 and 2's. You still have plenty of spellcasters like bards, beguilers, duskblades, healers, dread necros, and warmages put now things are a lot more manageable for the DM and the spellcasters aren't completely dominating so the warriors and skillmonkeys won't feel useless.

RobbyPants

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 12:21:02 PM »
Sort of.  Beguilers still get crap like Solid Fog and Dread Necros can pack more melee power than the rest of the party combined.  It it more manageable, though, in that most of the awesome can be pinned down to a few problem spells rather than to the entire list.
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

nilvyn

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 12:47:46 PM »
First you have to ask your party not to break the game, as a DM you prolly don't have enough free time to come up with a contingency for everything your players can throw at you. Ask them to work with you, and they prolly will.

After that, there's a bunch of stuff you can do to make things more interesting:

- I think the most important thing is to make up your own stuff. If you are on the Min/Max boards you are prolly comfortable enough with the rules to quickly make a monster suitable to your PCs' level.

- Give your fighter type monsters antimagic or mobility special abilities. Anything to make your caster players at least feel threatened.

- Monsters who can hide really well, from magic and normal detection.

- Very dynamic and dangerous battlefields, like an erupting volcano, a room with random teleport traps, flickering AM fields. Make your monsters immune to the threat, or make it useful to them (eg. have them use teleport traps to appear next to the PC). It prolly won't be a real challenge to your players, but it will waste their resources and make the game more interesting.

- Throw in some counterspellers with really high initiatives, don't overdo it though. It can be really frustrating.

- Make a fake BBEG fight to waste their resources.

- Judicious use of subtle cheating. Keep in mind the goal is to make your PCs to HAVE FUN, not to kill them. Don't do anything frustrating, but if another monster steps out of the shadows to make a pushover fight more challenging its a good thing. Discuss it with your players, the people I play with have asked me to cheat to make the game more fun...

LordBlades

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 12:52:24 PM »
The tier system is made for things like this.

The simple solution would be to ban the tier 1 and 2's. You still have plenty of spellcasters like bards, beguilers, duskblades, healers, dread necros, and warmages put now things are a lot more manageable for the DM and the spellcasters aren't completely dominating so the warriors and skillmonkeys won't feel useless.

....beguilers that can multiclass into shadowcraft mager and still throw 80% of the wizard spell list your way. Same goes for bard>sublime chord. As RobbyPants said, it's easier to pin down the problem spells/feats/items and ban those.

In the end, the only final solution I've found to these issues is have a talk among the gaming group, and try to stick to a power level that everybody is comfortable with.
'

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 12:55:49 PM »
The tier system is made for things like this.

The simple solution would be to ban the tier 1 and 2's. You still have plenty of spellcasters like bards, beguilers, duskblades, healers, dread necros, and warmages put now things are a lot more manageable for the DM and the spellcasters aren't completely dominating so the warriors and skillmonkeys won't feel useless.

....beguilers that can multiclass into shadowcraft mager and still throw 80% of the wizard spell list your way. Same goes for bard>sublime chord. As RobbyPants said, it's easier to pin down the problem spells/feats/items and ban those.
Eh, those are outliers. If I were banning wizards and sorcerers, I sure as hell wouldn't allow either of those, as they're basically end-around methods of becoming a wizard/sorcerer.

I think banning the "big 5" is a decent way of leveling the playing field, actually. Of course, that should include banning anything that can gain access to their spellcasting via other methods, like the Shadowcraft Mage and Sublime Chord PrCs
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Mixster

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 01:12:48 PM »
This is exactly what the tier system is for.

The tier system with all its flaws really shines at telling you what class is most powerful at the higher levels, and they already start pulling away here.

At level 1, a fighter can beat a wizard, and a warblade laughs at the sillyness that is the cleric. At level 3, the Druid suddenly says, well I've got this animal companion and plenty of crocodiles and starts pulling away. At level 7 The wizard and the Cleric pulls with him, from their combined awesome of tentacles, enervation, solid fog, and divine power. As well as enough spells per day to be useful every encounter.
At higher levels the other classes try to pull away, but the combined awesome that is the tier 1 casters, is too much. They can settle into niche roles of power (tier 2), or be a jack-of-all trades yet better at the tier one classes at none (Tier 3).

The most important rule is still that players should have fun, especially when playing alongside newer players, I prefer to play a wizard who focuses on buffing his allies, so they can feel more useful. You can do pretty good buffing at the low levels, and at higher levels I can keep a few back-up plans, but I still buff my allies and make them shine.

So it's more about the players than the DM. I attempt to put up a lot of monsters that are "better" against casters than regular fighters, such as things with freedom of movement, a good speed and some sort of teleport, but it all doesn't matter that much, because those things can annoy the fighter as well as the wizard.
And killing the casters can lead to some stupid party wipes, so that's not really an option either.

I would simply say: Please do not use your spells to win every encounter, the poor rogue is feeling worthless, when the rogue isn't around.
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Endarire

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 10:27:56 PM »
How does Pathfinder bias things toward casters?

Also, as GM, I prefer to build enemies with class levels, usually casters or martial adepts.  I was asking advice for my compatriots who seem dumbfounded that my playing "average" is still PWN.

The tier system comes into play around level 7, and remarkably so.  When a DM of another group nerfed all save-or-lose spells, I switched to summoning.  When that stopped working, I relied on heavy buffing.  My ultimate fallback position is blasting, but I am loathe to blast, if only out of principle.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 10:29:47 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Benly

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2010, 06:50:35 AM »
How does Pathfinder bias things toward casters?

The justification I tend to see is "Wizards and sorcs got buffed, so clearly they're even more broken than before!"

What makes that inaccurate is that what got buffed is the non-spell basic class features, which were never what made wizards or sorcs broken - that part was already only marginally better than the commoner, for crying out loud. The nerfs to full-casters went, as they inevitably had to, in the spells. A few problem spells (notably Polymorph and its amazing friends) got nerfed, which is much more of a change to the wizard's power than the crappy x/day abilities the class itself got. The problem is that not enough of the spells got nerfed by enough of a margin to break up the underlying problems of the caster/noncaster divide.

So, as with most things, Pathfinder took a step in the right direction but didn't go nearly far enough for the problem to be considered fixed. The changes to the spell list might put off the game breaking in half for 2-4 extra levels, or it might not.

(Note that none of this applies when you're talking about also letting in all 3.5 sourcebooks; if you do that, obviously all their brokenness comes with them. The most ludicrous claim I have heard in this regard is "nerfing polymorph doesn't change anything, because players will just take Draconic Polymorph instead!" When Pathfinder is under discussion, WOTC sourcebooks become questionable third-party material requiring DM inspection and vetting.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 06:52:55 AM by Benly »

Etarran

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2010, 06:54:34 AM »
Part of the problem is approaching D&D as though it is a tactical war game, rather than a roleplaying game. Certainly, it has aspects of wargaming, but the system is far too unbalanced to be much fun with everyone always making the strategically optimal decisions. There certainly exist DM abilities to deny players actions, lock them out of combats, charm them, and generally prevent your fighters and rogues from contributing to the battle - but using those too often is a mark of poor GMing, rather than poor player builds. While it is good if you have your group optimize to similar levels, you also need to create encounters that play to their various abilities - and trust that your players will not go out of their way to step on one another's toes. The wizard almost certainly could solve every problem the party faces with a minimum of effort, thereby making the other players feel useless and have no fun, but if they do you should probably look into getting a new wizard for the party - not to mention a new friend.

Long story short: real people do not always make the best use of their abilities in every situation, and are usually more than happy to let other people do the work. Why should your characters be any different?

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2010, 10:32:58 AM »
(Note that none of this applies when you're talking about also letting in all 3.5 sourcebooks; if you do that, obviously all their brokenness comes with them. The most ludicrous claim I have heard in this regard is "nerfing polymorph doesn't change anything, because players will just take Draconic Polymorph instead!" When Pathfinder is under discussion, WOTC sourcebooks become questionable third-party material requiring DM inspection and vetting.)
Ridiculous or not, if PF is going to tout backwards compatibility, then they have to accept what comes with it.  If they just stopped lying about it, then that issue would go away.
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2010, 11:39:35 AM »
Ridiculous or not, if PF is going to tout backwards compatibility, then they have to accept what comes with it.  If they just stopped lying about it, then that issue would go away.

This is a ridiculous claim. Imagine that some third party press releases the Tome of Overpowered Bullshit for 3.5. It contains a feat that doubles your spells known per level, a feat that doubles your spell slots per level, and just for giggles the Lightning Warrior. 3.5 is fully compatible with the Tome of Overpowered Bullshit, but that doesn't mean using it is a good idea. It is a fully compatible imbalanced third-party sourcebook, just as WoTC sourcebooks are for Pathfinder.

Or, for another analogy, imagine that you have bought a shiny new PS3 (back when it was actually being made backwards-compatible, heh.) You pop in a completely terrible PS1 game with bad balance and awful gameplay. It runs perfectly, bad balance, awful gameplay, and all. Do you then complain that your PS3 is not backwards compatible because your bad game was still a bad game?

Basically, PF being backwards compatible doesn't mean it'll somehow magically make broken books unbroken. It just means that you can adapt forwards into PF whatever 3.5 stuff you want with a minimum of effort, which is more or less true. It is not obliged to also fix the broken things for you in the process, because that would involve them actually rewriting the non-OGL supplements for you which is not actually legal for them to do. Pathfinder has serious problems, but bullshit claims about what you imagine backwards compatibility to mean doesn't actually bear on them.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2010, 11:40:55 AM »
How does Pathfinder bias things toward casters?

How doesn't it bias things towards casters?

Facetious response aside, let me count the ways.

Let's start with character creation, because Pathfinder makes it real clear like before you have even made a caster that you should make a caster and only a caster. You just have to listen.

So let's say you want to be a Wizard. +1 HP/level, just for existing.

You then start assigning stats. Upon looking at the point buy system for more than about 15 seconds you realize it is heavily biased towards Single Attribute Dependent characters. Aka, you. So you take an 18 Int and 16 Con, offsetting it with 1 or more meaningless 7s and 8s. Now you might argue that the 3.5 PB system was also favored towards SAD characters. You'd be right. But the PF PB system is more biased in that regard.

So while the 3.5 Wizard would only be running a 14 Con, the PF Wizard can easily run 16.

+2 HP/level, and you haven't even actually done anything yet.

Then you pick your race. Several races give you a +2 in whatever you want, and one of these is clearly better than the others so you take a human, with +2 Int. You might argue that there were already +2 Int races in 3.5, but those were non core and had drawbacks that made them not really worth it. Gimpy Elves are Gimpy.

+2 HP/level and +1 save DCs.

So then you get to the favored class mechanic. Every time you take a level of your favored class you get 1 HP or 1 skill point. The favored class can't be changed, but the bonus can be different level to level. Of course one of these is clearly better than the others.

Obviously, this system only makes a real difference for classes that don't have to multiclass or PRC to be viable. While a Wizard can PRC if he wants to, it is by no means necessary.

+3 HP/level and +1 save DCs.

And then you look at the other stuff. Now some of the class features are very obvious traps like "flail for the piddly shit of 2d4+half level". But because they are very obvious traps, you just continue reading as if they don't exist. And there are other things in there like "You get large bonuses to Initiative and always act in the surprise round. PS: Fuck you beatsticks."

And when you actually get to the spells themselves some of them are nerfed, but mostly in meaningless ways. The ones that actually were nerfed were quite meaningless on a power scale of things. None of this matters though, as you still have at least 1 good spell at each level meaning you're no less effective, just less interesting. And this is without just saying fuck it and importing 3.5 spells.

So then you look at what you're up against enemy wise. Now there's this bit in the PF books that says something to the effect of "You don't need +x stat items to stay on the RNG, so don't feel compelled to give them to everything. Instead give them cool but useless items". Of course this is a blatant lie, but if your DM actually buys that your enemies will all have pathetic saves, allowing your +1 DCs (more, if you use feats on Spell Focus and such) to mow them down like the useless mooks they are. Obviously, the DM should not actually do this and if he is remotely intelligent he won't. But we're discussing Pathfinder, so there is at least a 50% chance he will. Giant type enemies are now considered a subtype of humanoids, so have fun blowing away Ogres, Trolls, and actual Giants with much less resource expenditure.

Dispel? Went from a serious threat to your buffed up run to completely trivial. A 3.5 character has to think carefully about how they will deal with suddenly having their stats cut in half from losing all their buffs. The PF character loses 1-5 buffs at most depending on which Dispel is thrown and what its CL is. Except he doesn't, because that change means Dispel is so worthless it joins the ranks of other fail spells like Evocation.

Clearly, the stage is set for you to just own everything as a caster even more than you could in 3.5.

So what happens if you don't heed the obvious warnings and opt for a beatstick instead?

Let's walk through the process.

You decide you want to be a Fighter. No HP boost, because fuck you.

You then start assigning stats. Remember how the PB system was biased in favor of SAD characters? It's biased at least as strongly against MAD characters. Nowhere to put those meaningless 7s and 8s you see. Good luck even getting 18 Str, 14 Con, and the other important stats over fail levels.

You're still not any better off than you were in 3.5, and you're actually a bit worse.

Then you pick your race. Of course you go for +2 Str. But as you could already get a +2 Str race in 3.5 core, this makes no real difference.

Still no better off and actually a bit worse.

Then you get to the favored class mechanic. You know, that thing that rewards pure class characters? Well you're a beatstick, so you're going to be multiclassing and PRCing like crazy just to try and stay relevant. +1 HP/level will not stop you from being a fail character.

And then you look at the other stuff. Most of the traps here are not so obvious but they are even more common. In fact there are more traps in here than a tranny bar. :lmao

But seriously. Vital Strike line is a trap, the whole Critical based line is a trap, the net effect of attempting a maneuver in PF is that you fail to perform that maneuver in PF so those lines are traps, the Whirlwind attack line is a trap (which shouldn't surprise anyone), the Cleave line is a trap, the TWF line is a trap... It's like playing Minesweeper where 90% of the squares have a fucking bomb under them. Can't even move without blowing yourself up. What's the point of having more feats when there's so few feats worth taking and so many feats have been heavily nerfed? Even the old standbys no longer work. Improved Trip doesn't because it's a maneuver and therefore fails, because you lose the free attack, and because the Spiked Chain got nerfed for no discernable reason. Power Attack also got nerfed hard, and unless you're a retard who thinks that 14 is a larger number than 48 you'll realize this. Yes, some dumbfuck over there was actually saying this. Repeatedly.

This of course means your only option is to auto attack for piddly shit, and get put out of your misery in two rounds only to come back with a real character and enjoy your Caster Edition. Oh, they'll try to distract you from this with meaningless fluff features like "an AC that still gets auto hit, so you don't care" and "lol +saves against fear" but that's like offering someone a lollipop as consolation after raping them. You're not going to accomplish anything but making the situation worse and you should have never done such a terrible thing (making beatsticks fail even harder) in the first place.

You can't even bring in 3.5 stuff to save them as Leap Attack, Shock Trooper etc are still hamstrung by the gimped out PA.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2010, 11:51:38 AM »
The Pathfinder campaign world fluff sounds pretty cool, though.  ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2010, 11:57:01 AM »
Ridiculous or not, if PF is going to tout backwards compatibility, then they have to accept what comes with it.  If they just stopped lying about it, then that issue would go away.

This is a ridiculous claim. Imagine that some third party press releases the Tome of Overpowered Bullshit for 3.5.
You're not even addressing what I said.  Like, at all.  I'm not talking about 3rd party splats.  I'm talking about official WotC published products.  Like, the ones that PF said they are backward compatible with.  No one made a claim about 3.5 being compatable with any random 3rd party published crap.

Get another analogy and try again.


Basically, PF being backwards compatible doesn't mean it'll somehow magically make broken books unbroken. It just means that you can adapt forwards into PF whatever 3.5 stuff you want with a minimum of effort, which is more or less true. It is not obliged to also fix the broken things for you in the process, because that would involve them actually rewriting the non-OGL supplements for you which is not actually legal for them to do. Pathfinder has serious problems, but bullshit claims about what you imagine backwards compatibility to mean doesn't actually bear on them.
Let me get this straight.  So, they rewrite the PHB (open content), so it's obviously not backward compatible with with the 3.5 PHB.  It's been replaced.  All of the other books are non-OGL, which they can't touch.  What's left to be backward compatible with?  Seriously?

They rewrote the OGL stuff, so you aren't going to be using any of the "core" 3.5 books.  So they're claiming you can use those other non-OGL books and saying that works.  What definition are you using?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:00:55 PM by RobbyPants »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: How do you handle PCs starting at level 7?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2010, 11:59:09 AM »
How doesn't it bias things towards casters?
This guy sounds familiar. Is that you, Squelch?
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[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]