Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Kajhera]

I'm just going to say this is more how I build a monk, though I acknowledge the dip makes it not fit in this thread very well. It was the only way to combine it with Flurry - I was already abandoning enough of the monk's class features. Just a fragment of a build - I'm the worst in my group at abusing Jump, and usually stick with totemist / druid / unarmed swordsage for my female orcs who wouldn't imagine using normal weapons.

Consider Kensai / Ancestral Relic / Item Familiar strongly for the remaining parts, and/or switch Battle Jump for.

Class: Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Overwhelming Attack Monk 9
Race: Dragonborn Water Orc

Starting Abilities: Str 22, Dex 6, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 6, Cha 6

Skills: Jump, Intimidate, Perform(Dance), something else (Concentration?)
Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered
Skill Variant: Intimidation through Strength (Barbarian variant, Masters of the Wild)

Traits: Quick

Feats:
(B) Power Attack
(1) Flying Kick
(B) Improved Bull Rush
(3) Battle Jump
(6) Leap Attack
(9) Shock Trooper

[Kajhera]

Let's try an Expert build, with the important parts...
Necropolitan Human
Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Never Outnumbered

Skills: Intimidate, Craft(poison), Use Magic Device (why not), Diplomacy (sure), Knowledge (what hits your fancy)

Starting Abilities: Charisma 18

Feats:
(1) Wild Cohort (Swindlespitter), Master of Poisons
(3) Item Familiar
(6) Natural Bond (upgrade to Fleshraker)
(9) Imperious Command

[JaronK]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)?  I know you can do it with Kensai of course, but I don't think we should be multiclassing for this, especially since Experts wouldn't ever multiclass... Factotums are a virtually strictly better class, so if you were willing to play anything other than an Expert you'd be playing one of those from the start anyhow.

Anyway, I think a Knowledge Devotion Expert could be fun, especially if you use Educated so you can spread your other skills around more and really make use of  those other 10 class skills.  And what about a Lucid Dreaming assassin?  Those are always amusing.  You'd need to be protected from the damage of the dreamheart to pull it off of course.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

Admit it: you would have, if you'd thought of it first.

Nope, just like I haven't mentioned a Unseeli Feeli based Stun build. There are some things I don't bother with.

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works...

Necklace of Natural Weapons works.

[Nachofan99]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)? 

JaronK

Ancestral Relic does require a masterwork item, but it has an "Alternatively..." clause.  It's dumb but "Alternatively" follows with "may," "somehow," and "such as..." so it's definitely written with a LOT of leeway for you to make up an unusually improbable situation.  What that situation might be, I do not know but "monktopus" comes to mind in addition to some kind of vestigial twin.

However, while it might not be strict RAW, I can see *many* DMs easily allowing and House-Ruling Ancestral Relic to operate with Monks unarmed strike because they need the help.  In such a case what would a build look like?

[Kajhera]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)? 

JaronK

Ancestral Relic does require a masterwork item, but it has an "Alternatively..." clause.  It's dumb but "Alternatively" follows with "may," "somehow," and "such as..." so it's definitely written with a LOT of leeway for you to make up an unusually improbable situation.  What that situation might be, I do not know but "monktopus" comes to mind in addition to some kind of vestigial twin.

However, while it might not be strict RAW, I can see *many* DMs easily allowing and House-Ruling Ancestral Relic to operate with Monks unarmed strike because they need the help.  In such a case what would a build look like?

Make your parents Gentle Repose-preserved undead experts with ranks in Perform(sexual technique) and Craft(infant), who went at it for a fortnight using 100gp of aphrodisiacs before conceiving you to make yourself a masterwork weapon.

[Nachofan99]

See? That didn't take long at all. 

[Talore]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)? 

JaronK

Ancestral Relic does require a masterwork item, but it has an "Alternatively..." clause.  It's dumb but "Alternatively" follows with "may," "somehow," and "such as..." so it's definitely written with a LOT of leeway for you to make up an unusually improbable situation.  What that situation might be, I do not know but "monktopus" comes to mind in addition to some kind of vestigial twin.

However, while it might not be strict RAW, I can see *many* DMs easily allowing and House-Ruling Ancestral Relic to operate with Monks unarmed strike because they need the help.  In such a case what would a build look like?

Make your parents Gentle Repose-preserved undead experts with ranks in Perform(sexual technique) and Craft(infant), who went at it for a fortnight using 100gp of aphrodisiacs before conceiving you to make yourself a masterwork weapon.

[SorO_Lost]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)? 

JaronK

Ancestral Relic does require a masterwork item, but it has an "Alternatively..." clause.  It's dumb but "Alternatively" follows with "may," "somehow," and "such as..." so it's definitely written with a LOT of leeway for you to make up an unusually improbable situation.  What that situation might be, I do not know but "monktopus" comes to mind in addition to some kind of vestigial twin.

However, while it might not be strict RAW, I can see *many* DMs easily allowing and House-Ruling Ancestral Relic to operate with Monks unarmed strike because they need the help.  In such a case what would a build look like?

Make your parents Gentle Repose-preserved undead experts with ranks in Perform(sexual technique) and Craft(infant), who went at it for a fortnight using 100gp of aphrodisiacs before conceiving you to make yourself a masterwork weapon.

+3

[JaronK]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works...

Necklace of Natural Weapons works.

That part, at least, would work well enough.

I don't want to go down the road of "DMs would allow it because Monks need the help" simply because the same thing can be said of Experts (if not more so, I find DMs let people playing NPC classes get away with a lot), and this could get really silly fast (playing as a Monk or Expert who's been haunt shifted into a Masterwork Obdurium Sculpture which, as an item, can be an Item Familiar and Ancestral Relic...).

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

Also? Note that with Throwing/Distance/Returning, you can flurry from anywhere within 100'. At a crappy penalty, but that's covered when you hurl yourself at a space (AC of 5) and then continue your flurry from there. Then you use your last attack to hurl yourself away.

And a warforged could work for sure, since you can explicitly enhance various parts of its body.

[SorO_Lost]

Finally got around to finalizing my earlier Monk build today.

[spoiler]

Writhe

Desecrated Crafted Necropoliton Fire Elf Monk 9 (undead)
HD: 9d12+36 (100 HP)
Initiative: +4 = +0 (dex) + 4 (nimble bones)
Speed: 70ft. (50ft. while Blinking) = 30 (base) + 30 (enhancement) + 10 (nimble bones)
AC: 15 (+3 wis, +2 natural) Touch: 13, Flat-Footed: 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+12
Attack: +16(+21) = +6 (bab) + 6 (str) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 (marital aptitude) + +2* (flanking) + 3* (martial aptitude) + 2 (hidden). *using distracting ember.
Charge Damage: +93 = +6 (str) + 3 (thf) * 2 (power lunge) + 12 (pa) + 1 (enhancement) * 3 (valorous + battle jump)
Attack Options:
   Unarmed Strike +14 melee (1d10+6, +1d6 cold, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +14/+14/+9.
   Butterfly Sword +16 melee (1d6+7, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +16/+16/+11.
   Waithstrike Fukimi-Bari +4/+4/+4 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison), Full Attack +4/+4/+4/-1/-1/-1 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison).
   Heedless Charge +21 melee (3d6+93, +1d6 good/evil)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Holy Strike, Unarmed Strike.
Special Qualities: Fast Movement, Prayerful Meditation, Wall Walker, Purity of Body, Dark Moon Disciple(shadow blend), Invisible Fist, Undead Traits, Turn Resistance +6.
Saves: Fort +6, Refl +6, Will +9.
Abilities (pb 28):
   Str: 22 (+6) = 16 (base) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement)
   Dex: 10 (+0) =  8 (base) + 2 (racial)
   Con: -- (+0) =  8 (base) - 2 (racial)
   Int: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (racial)
   Wis: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (enhancement)
   Cha: 12 (+1) = 14 (base) - 2 (racial)
Feats: Skill Prodigy^F, Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation)^F, Battle Jump^1st, Power Attack^B, Improved Bull Rush^B, Martial Study(distracting ember)^3rd, Power Lunge^6th, Track^B, Shock Trooper^9th.
Skills (ranks only, 4+3*9=63): Balance 5, Diplomacy 5, Move Silently 12, Survival 7, Tumble 12, Use Magic Device* 12, Lucid Dreaming* 10.
Equipment (WBL 36,000gp, 28,651 spent): Fukimi-Bari x 50 (50gp), Wand-Waithstrike x20 (1,800gp), Marbles x 10 (1gp), Wand-Guidance of the Avatar x20 (1,800gp), +1 Valorous Desert Wind Butterfly Sword (18,300gp), Periapt of Wisdom +2 (2,000gp), Masterwork Tool x6 (300gp), Catspaws (6,200gp). Anything else needed and useful.
Languages: Common, Elven + 3 others.
Environment: Urban Areas.
Organization: Any
CR: 9
Treasure: See Equipment.
Alignment: Always lawful.
Advancement: By Class.
Level Adjustment: +0

Writhe is an assassin for hire. Typically he stalks his opponent learning his target's patterns and weaknesses before making his move. His signature is impaling the target's corpse on the ceiling after they have been killed. The method various from blunt force trauma & deep incisions to poisoning with needles. However, recently it became known that Writhe kills by ingested poison. An accurate kill count is unknown.

Tactics
Writhe's Shadow Blend ability grants him total concealment in areas without full sun light. The ability isn't invisiblity and doesn't require a hide check. Effects such as See Invisibility, True Seeing and Glitterdust cannot reveal the target as none of them negate concealment. However, effects such as Blindsight ignore this effect.

To complement that trait Writhe has the ability to cast Blink as an immediate action spell-like ability with a duration of 3 rounds. Writhe can use this once once per 3 rounds and thus by spending the immediate action every three rounds can remain in a perpetual Blinking state for stalking. While Blinking, Writhe has at least a 20% concealment against creatures with Blindsight-like effects, can fly with perfect maneuverability, and may walk though walls and such. However Writhe's speed drops to 3/4, his range of vision is 60ft and he suffers a 20% miss chance against other creatures. Normally Writhe will drop this prior to an assassination attempt.

Using his Shadow Blend & Blink Writhe can sneak into almost anywhere and by using of his Tracking abilities locate and dispatch targets as needed.

In direct combat. Writhe sticks to flanking his opponent only attacking when he has the upper hand. Frequently, if fighting in a building, using Blink or Wall Walker to fall from above he will use Battle Jump then use a free action to drop prone and though Blink continue to fall though the floor preventing retribution. If movement is prevented another well used tactic is using his Wand of Wraithstrike prior to spitting poisoned darts out of his mouth. And he is no stranger to fleeing from out right stronger opponents.

Benchmarks
[spoiler]Melee
Half-Orc Barbarbian 9
Str: 34 (+12) = 18 (base) + 2 (racial) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (greater rage)
Hit: 23 = 9 (bab) + 12 (str) + 2 (enhancement).
Damage: +112 = 12 (str) + 6 (thf) + 2 (enhancement) + 36 (pa + leap) * 2 (valorous)
Difference: -2 to attack (mindful Writhe's targets also lost Dex to AC) & -19 to damage.

Scouting
Dark Whispergnome Rogue 8
Speed: 40ft. = 30 (base) + 10 (dark)
Hide: +37 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 8 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 4 (size) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Move: +32 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 6 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Difference: Superior Speed, Hide uncompairable, -10 Move Silently, able to Track.
***[/spoiler]

***[/spoiler]
Hope you like it, and if not, I got some spare gold

[Nachofan99]

I like the way you tackled it SorO.  Instead of saying "well crap, I need to have all these stats..." you just said screw Con AND Dex AND Cha and took a lot of the MAD away.  Looks like you're capable in combat against a wide variety of encounters and can just walk through most others.  Definitely a good build.  One of the things is, if the Expert Dumps CON and Dex and Cha, do they really get any better? Not really.

Much deserved 

Of course, I have not scrutinized the build but it looks solid.  Way better than 3% at least.

[Tshern]

Shouldn't the butterfly sword cost 16k? 2^3x2000? Perhaps it could benefit from a wand chamber, too.

[Mixster]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)?  I know you can do it with Kensai of course, but I don't think we should be multiclassing for this, especially since Experts wouldn't ever multiclass... Factotums are a virtually strictly better class, so if you were willing to play anything other than an Expert you'd be playing one of those from the start anyhow.

Anyway, I think a Knowledge Devotion Expert could be fun, especially if you use Educated so you can spread your other skills around more and really make use of  those other 10 class skills.  And what about a Lucid Dreaming assassin?  Those are always amusing.  You'd need to be protected from the damage of the dreamheart to pull it off of course.

JaronK

Educated is campaign specific, so instead you can grab Planar Touchstone -  Catalogues of Enlightenment, knowledge domain to get the same effect.

@Sor0. - Decent build, it does have some problems:
Wraithstrike only works on melee attacks. Fukimi Bari are ranged, and wont get anything from being wraithstriked.
You are just making one attack when you charge, right? So only one attack at +16 dealing oodles of damage is what you've got, right?
Adding a Mighty (6) longbow might be a good idea, you are profiecient with it.
Your AC is horrible, but you've got a miss-chance. Against a lot of mobs, a single grapple attempt will kill you though.
Power lunge? Really, you want +27 damage for giving an AoO? Especially as most monsters can grapple you with that AoO?
Using Flaws points me to my older comments about monks needing feats desperately.
But I guess it is okay, and pretty much on par with Jaron's expert build.

[oslecamo]

Speaking of grapple, how does the blink interacts with it? Wouldn't the monk be able to move away on his own turn just like he can pass trough solid objects?

[SorO_Lost]

Shouldn't the butterfly sword cost 16k? 2^3x2000? Perhaps it could benefit from a wand chamber, too.

Umm, no idea what that is. SRD says 18k for a +3 enhancement, masterwork is another 300 gp, and I was too lazy to look up the base cost.

@Sor0. - Decent build, it does have some problems:
Wraithstrike only works on melee attacks. Fukimi Bari are ranged, and wont get anything from being wraithstriked.
You are just making one attack when you charge, right? So only one attack at +16 dealing oodles of damage is what you've got, right?
Adding a Mighty (6) longbow might be a good idea, you are profiecient with it.
Your AC is horrible, but you've got a miss-chance. Against a lot of mobs, a single grapple attempt will kill you though.
Power lunge? Really, you want +27 damage for giving an AoO? Especially as most monsters can grapple you with that AoO?
Using Flaws points me to my older comments about monks needing feats desperately.
But I guess it is okay, and pretty much on par with Jaron's expert build.

1. Missed that on Fukimi Bari.
2. Opposed to what? It's near the Barbarian's single attack out put. If your talking Lion Totem, well then that is a different story, but the damage hits the kill point so meh.
3. Didn't include the bow but that is the reason for Elf. Honestly the race needs changed, OA's Monk patch in gives Heavy Crossbow proficiency. so any +X int race would work, +X int/Str race would be the best but I doubt there is any.
4. Heedless Charge makes you have negative AC (at so low it doesn't matter), also who cares about AC? You have a 50% chance attacks miss you, what is that worth? AC 30? Later on AC 75? How about AC vs SPELLS, oh right, doesn't exist. I'll take my miss chance thank you very much.
5. *Power Lunges* Flat-footed unaware target gets an AoO against something he doesn't know that is there. And round 2+'s try would look like Unawared target gets an AoO against the Monk but still doesn't know where to attack. Admit ably, can't use it against people with Blindsight, the kind in which it should run from.
6. Who the heck doesn't use Flaws on this forum? Rawr, The Wizard in that thread over there uses Flaws, he sucks. Try again.

Generally, you are just plain off in understanding the build and the little rant on Flaws is just plain out there. I'll fix the blow gun part later though.

[Lycanthromancer]

Also, if you have total concealment (50% miss chance) you cannot be directly targeted, and that means (among other things) no Attacks of Opportunity.

[Tshern]

[quote author=SorO_Lost link=topic=9602.msg416788#msg416788 Umm, no idea what that is. SRD says 18k for a +3 enhancement, masterwork is another 300 gp, and I was too lazy to look up the base cost.
[/quote]
I was being a retard, that is why I made the mistake. Anyway, the sheet still seems to say 8.3k, not 18.3k.

[awaken DM golem]

I don't think the Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic thing works... Monk fists count as manufactured weapons, but they don't count as "items" per se, and certainly not Masterwork ones (doesn't it require that)? 

JaronK

Ancestral Relic does require a masterwork item, but it has an "Alternatively..." clause.  It's dumb but "Alternatively" follows with "may," "somehow," and "such as..." so it's definitely written with a LOT of leeway for you to make up an unusually improbable situation.  What that situation might be, I do not know but "monktopus" comes to mind in addition to some kind of vestigial twin.

However, while it might not be strict RAW, I can see *many* DMs easily allowing and House-Ruling Ancestral Relic to operate with Monks unarmed strike because they need the help.  In such a case what would a build look like?

Make your parents Gentle Repose-preserved undead experts with ranks in Perform(sexual technique) and Craft(infant), who went at it for a fortnight using 100gp of aphrodisiacs before conceiving you to make yourself a masterwork weapon.

+3

HA !!
Bravo ... this is what the C.O. board is all about ...