Author Topic: Raging Walker and gish  (Read 2763 times)

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The_Laughing_Man

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Raging Walker and gish
« on: October 01, 2010, 06:09:21 PM »
We are starting a new campaign from level 1 in our group. Most likely the campaign ends at level 10, at most 12 and then we start a new one with 1st level chars.
So I've come up with a couple of builds that might be fun to play. One is a pure melee and the other one is a gish.

Party size will be 4. The others have planned to be 2 druids and 1 cleric.

Books allowed: PHB, DMG, MM1, PGtF, PHB2 (general and fighter related feats only) and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (races only).

House rules and limitations:
[spoiler]
PrCs forbidden: Incantatrix, Hathran, Red wizard, Initiate of X
Feats forbidden: natural spell, leadership
All templates are out.

Spells forbidden (including sla, su, ex):
All flying and magical movement related spells are out (e.g. fly, air walk, teleport, dim door, levitate) (expeditious retreat, telekinesis, plane shift and gate are ok, also real wings are ok)
Alter self, polymorph, shapechange and similar are out (wild shape is ok and perhaps lycanthropy as well)
Extradimensional spaces are out (e.g. rope trick)
Circle magic is out

Items forbidden:
All items which would give a forbidden spell effect (e.g. bag of holding, flying carpet)
Dust of sneezing and choking

Starting money is 900 gp.
28 point buy (or roll the dice)
[/spoiler]

I've made two variations of the gish. I'm aiming for melee gish so I could tank and give some magical mayhem at the same time.

Human gish: Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5
[spoiler]
28 point buy: str 14, dex 12, con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 8

Wizard summon familiar (Toad +3 hp), scribe scroll, <militia (PGtF)>, <combat expertise>
Wizard
Wizard                      <improved trip>
Wizard                      +1 INT
Wizard                      <quicken spell>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   <power attack>, <cleave>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   +1 INT
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   <improved initiative>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)

BAB: +7/+2, CL 9, HP 54.5, Fort +7, Ref +3, Wil +5

It uses militia to qualify for EK. Extra feat and skill points from human are great.
[/spoiler]

Sun Elf gish: Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5
[spoiler]
28 point buy: str 14, dex 12, con 14, int 16, wis 10, cha 8
Racial adj:      str 14, dex 12, con 12, int 18, wis 10, cha 8

Wizard summon familiar (Toad +3 hp), scribe scroll, <otherworldly (PGtF)>
Wizard
Wizard                      <combat expertise>
Wizard                      +1 INT
Wizard                      <quicken spell>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   <power attack>, <improved trip>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   +1 INT
Eldritch Knight (DMG)   <cleave>
Eldritch Knight (DMG)

BAB: +7/+2, CL 9, HP 44.5, Fort +6, Ref +3, Wil +5

It uses otherworldly (outsider type goodies) to qualify for EK. Suffers from -2 con.
[/spoiler]

I can see some problems with these builds, i.e. MAD and lowish AC. Especially not having alter self and polymorph hurts a lot.
Would transmuter specialist wizard could be better (ban evo, necro/ench) than generalist?
Increasing STR instead of INT?
Change cleave to something else like brutal strike (PHB2) or steadfast determination (PHB2)?
One race alternative (for militia feat) is a halfling. I suppose strongheart halfling is the best option. That would yield better AC and extra feat. -2 STR +2 DEX..

What do you reckon, is this path to failure or a viable route?

Then the melee build. Basically the aim is for pure melee build with some versatility.

Human raging walker: Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 4/Horizon Walker 2/Divine Champion 3
[spoiler]
28 point buy: str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 10

Barbarian   Fast movement, illiteracy, 1/rage, <education (PGtF)>, <power attack>
Fighter                        <weapon focus>
Barbarian                     Uncanny dodge, <endurance>
Barbarian                     Trap sense +1, +1 STR
Barbarian                     Rage 2/day
Horizon Walker (DMG)   Terrain mastery (Desert) (fatigue immunity), <cleave>
Horizon Walker (DMG)   Terrain mastery (Underground) (60-foot darkvision)
Divine Champion (PGtF) Lay on hands, +1 STR
Divine Champion (PGtF) <improved initiative>, sacred defense +1, <brutal strike (PHB2)>
Divine Champion (PGtF) Smite infidel

BAB +10/+5, CL 0, HP 82.5, Fort +14, Ref +4, Wis +2

Hmm.. He is illiterate but educated. Education and endurance pave the way for the Horizon Walker. Fatigue immunity is a great counter for fatigue from rage. Darkvision is always splendid. Divine champion is there mainly because of the feats.
[/spoiler]

How does this build sound?

I've also considered going for cleric (lesser aasimar), druid or a full caster wizard.

Tips and optimizations appreciated, thanks in advance.

 :D

Epimetheus

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2010, 06:29:10 PM »
If the team's going to be all tier 1, and the rest of your group is all divine, you may as well go full wizard. Specialization gives extra spell slots, which is nice. And since there are plenty of casters, banning schools isn't such a bad thing. Or you could be generalist and focus on crafting items/scrolls.

I notice that the DM seems to have banned some awesome options... like Wizard PrCs and Natural Spell and DMM (assuming that's not in one of the given books).
But Contigency was not banned, which is just as well, since Wild Shape seems to be allowed. The poor Cleric won't have many ways to get rid of their Turn Undead uses though.

Unfortunately, with wildshape and their animal companions, the druids will rock the melee (maybe the cleric will too).
So it might be best to not be a gish and let them handle the fighting.

To carry all your stuff, just have the druid animal companions carry them. Once they become large size, it's not really a problem anymore. Also, I think that wildshaped druids technically are good at carrying stuff, as it all melds into their bodies.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 04:39:57 PM by Epimetheus »

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 12:44:14 PM »
Thank you, Epimetheus, for the words of wisdom. :)

I also had the feeling that gish with the current house rules would not rock. A conjurer for example with his summons would provide some meatshield. I did not consider a crafter so maybe that's an avenue to pursue. Contingency and permanency are allowed yes and see some regular use too. Incantatrix would have been sweet but alas no..

Now that I think of it Tier5 walker build would not be fun in the long run when all the others are Tier1.

The last I heard my group is going for 3 druids and are convincing me to do also. A fun idea to have the animal companion lug around your stuff!

 :D

snakeman830

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 04:00:25 PM »
A Conjurer looks to be a better option than a Transmuter in  this game, as most of the useful Transmutation spells are banned.  I suggest always having some spells memorized to get flying mounts as the game seems to assume a method of flight at higher levels and your DM banned most of them.  On top of that, teleportation is much better done by an arcane caster than a divine, and you will be thankful for it later.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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Epimetheus

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 04:57:30 PM »
So a team of 4 druids will win without much danger to anyone in the party. It's like having a team of 8 that can heal and call even more allies to whatever situation is needed. There are enough characters to rock melee, and enough spells to handle everything else. Eventually, all the animal companions become flying mounts (dire bats?) and Tree Stride should get you a lot of any 'teleportation' you need. No extraplanar access though. Healing is easy and most efficient with CLW and pre-casted Goodberries [this also handles food], 9.5 HP(x2 if cast by self on self and animal companion) and up to 8 HP, and then at lvl 7, spontaneous Unicorn healing, a splittable 42.5 HP and a potential Neutralize Poison. Between lvl 3 and 6, just use summons to absorb the damage if you're worried. I believe that floating out of range of combat on Dire Bats at lvl 4 is just perfect. And then spam Summon Nature's Ally II (crocodile) until you win. Lvl 5 gives Thoqquas which are extremely useful for burrowing through stone walls or floors!

For once, the group has their own secret language: Druidic, so even lacking telepathy between each other, they'll still be able to communicate well. While Wildshaped, I think they'd just need Speak with Animals to be cast on themselves beforehand, as they technically are animals.

If you're allowed 4 druids, enjoy it.

weenog

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 05:34:23 PM »
Uh, druids are not animals while wild shaped, they retain their own type.  And re-read tree stride, it's neat but it's not even good enough to be teleport's retard younger brother.

The druid is not an "anything you can do, I can do better" class.  It's more of an "anything you can do, I can come up with an ugly half-assed kludge job that kind of looks like what you were doing" class.  Unless the you is a fighter.

You really should resist joining the druid club and be some kind of arcanist for the precision applications the others can't do.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:36:38 PM by weenog »
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The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 07:20:13 PM »
@ snakeman830:
We have had conjurers before in our games and the have proved to be very good. Orbing is great after there is enough there are enough summons that tie down the opponents. I had a feeling that transmuter would not be that good with the house rules. Of course transmutation provides a lot of utility spells which can't be ignored. Teleportation is unfortunately banned :( except for deities.

I have been entertaining an idea on having improved familiar feat (air elemental or ice memphit; both small size) and then strapping on it an exotic military saddle (figuring out the price is hard). Then casting reduce person on myself and paying for permanency. Thus reducing my own size from small to tiny. Then riding and flying with my loyal familiar with a ring of featherfalling.

@ Epimetheus:
The other players are also telling me that animal companions rock, can't disagree on that! I never noticed that goodberries can be used for sustenance. No need to carry those food rations around anymore. Thoqqua trick is great! I hope tree stride was not on the banned list as well. And riding with dire bats I think that's been done before in our games.

Druidic as a group language! No more of those pesky eavesdroppers. Perhaps ghostwise halfling's 20 ft telepathy (su) would overcome the communication barrier while in wild shape. Also if everybody are wildshaped to the same animal type then normal communication (like between animals?) would be possible.

One of our group is planning to have badger animal companion and riding it while it burrows. I'm not sure if that's possible but it would be interesting if it is. (suffoction)

4 druids even without natural spell would be enjoyable. Have 2 of them wild shape while other 2 cast. When the wild shaped ones are taking too much beating then switch around.  :D

@ weenog:
Wizards would have a plethora of spells (even with our limited book selection) that the druids don't. That would strongly suggest having one on board. At least not all the loot fits to druids. There could be some arcane trinkets along as well. Specialist conjurer or even generalist would fit to the group.

I think I'll have to make a druid and an arcane build and check with the group which would be better to have in the long run. Though I may already guess what they say. Thanks for the replies, appreciated!

Mixster

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 07:42:18 PM »
If you tell your druid friends to grab greenbound summoning, and you go conjurer or transmuter (you've still got nice stuff like Haste, Slow and that kind of Jazz, even though your most powerful tricks are out) that focus on buffing. You can laugh whenever the DM says CR appropriate encounter.

Apart from that I actually think your group could do with an arcanists, if you choose a melee warrior you will probably feel worthless, except for the first 3 or so levels.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 08:42:18 PM »
According to the original developer, apparently greenbound summoning was originally a +2 metamagic that somehow lost the cost during editing.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 09:56:12 PM »
First is that toad familiars are horrible. You'd better off with a bat (blindsense), raven (speech), or even a hawk, especially since flight magic is out. A large sized improved familiar like a hippogriff is also a nifty idea.

Or better yet be a raptorian or dragonborn with the wings aspect.

If you're going to lose a CL you'd be better going fighter1/wizard6/spellsword1/abjurant champion5 for a 10-12th level build.

Epimetheus

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 02:01:58 AM »
So, it seems very few sources are allowed for this game.

Quote
Books allowed: PHB, DMG, MM1, PGtF, PHB2 (general and fighter related feats only) and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (races only).

I agree about the familiars, but it seems that the build is not an option, even if it is good for a gish. Eldritch Knight seems to be the only option. I'm not sure if those races work either, but getting wings of some sort would be a priority if your allies will be getting some sort of flight too. [unless you can ride with them? Are there rules for multiple riders on the same mount?]

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Raging Walker and gish
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 11:05:05 AM »