Author Topic: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)  (Read 4018 times)

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Godless_Paladin

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Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« on: October 01, 2010, 05:01:07 PM »
Starting in a level 2 game in the near future and I was looking to play the party cleric, yet I'm quite divided on how I should actually go about building it.

Relevant info:  I'm interested in having a melee-ish or perhaps stealthy cleric.  I would like something that's effective now, but grows well for the future.  Houserules for the game includes fractional BAB and gives automatic proficiency with a deity's favored weapon, as well as allowing a choice of a non-class skill or two as a class skill for free (with the notable exception of UMD).  My deity's domains are Fate, Travel, Law, and Retribution, and favored weapon is a bastard sword.  DMM:Persist is not allowed (But DMM:Anything Else is).  The rest of the party includes a Beguiler and a Warblade/Swordsage, and both are no slouches as optimizers.  My race will be Human.  My alignment is LN, but alignment restrictions for PrCs and stuff are negotiable with the DM (e.g. I could take Prestige Paladin if I wanted to).  I have access to pretty much any sourcebook desired, but things like Nightsticks will be rejected.  Flaws are considered dirty.  Attributes are determined by 32 point buy.

Right now, I'm pondering the possibility of Cloistered Cleric / Church Inquisitor / Divine Oracle / Ordained Champion / Prestige Paladin / something (Bone Knight? Contemplative?), but I'm completely open to other ideas.  Other things I've been looking at include Ruby Knight Vindicator, Abjurant Champion (see "Adaptation" for the divine version), a few other things.

As my initial domains I was thinking of taking Law and Travel (with free Knowledge), and switching out Law for Law Devotion and Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion.  As attractive as Travel Devotion is, the domain itself is pretty good and I feel I should have at least on domain for the extra spell slot per day.

Future plans:  At level 4, I'd get Church Inquisitor and Inquisition Domain, then grab Divine Oracle and Oracle Domain, then grab Ordained Champion and switch out the Oracle Domain and my old Weapon Focus feat for 2 combat feats (Power Attack and... I don't know.  If I can't think of anything I'd just keep the Oracle Domain).  However, giving up a caster level or two for Ordained Champion makes me uneasy.

I figure I'll rely on Blade of Blood / Knowledge Devotion to at least dent things, try to keep myself alive with a good AC (3 law, 4 chain shirt, 2 heavy shield, 1 dex = 20), and have Longstrider as my only option in a domain slot since Travel's the only domain I didn't switch out.  Guidance in level 0 slots for that +1 bonus when I get the drop on something.  Don't really know what else there is to do at level 2.

Feats:  
Domain Switch:  (Law Devotion), (Knowledge Devotion)
Human:  Extra Turning?
Level 1:  Travel Devotion? (Worth an actual feat slot?)
Level 3:  Weapon Focus (for Ordained Champ)
Ordained Champion combat feats:  Power Attack, ???
Level 6:  ???
Level 9:  Holy Warrior
Level 12:  ???
Level 15:  ???
Level 18:  ???

Prospective stats:  Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12

Anywho, please help!  Thanks in advance.

PS:  If I do go Ordained Champion, what are good things to use for Channel Spell?  What about hidden gems from the Paladin spell list?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:10:38 AM by Godless_Paladin »

carnivore

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2010, 06:57:10 PM »

looks like you have a pretty good idea already .... all i would do is this, adjust your stats as follows:

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12

also if your were interested in a Rogueish type Cleric Build, you might try this:

Feats: 
Domain Switch:  (Law Devotion), (Knowledge Devotion)
Human: Education
Level 1: Criminal Background  [spoiler]CRIMINAL BACKGROUND(City of Stormreach,p95)
You come from a long line of pirates, outlaws, or sneak thieves. Your instincts are bent toward illicit gain and self-preservation above all else.
Benefit: Bluff, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand are all considered class skills. In addition, when observing an individual, you can make a DC 15 Sense Motive check to ascertain any criminal motives. You also gain a +4 bonus on Gather Information checks involving crime and criminals.
Special: You must take this feat at 1st level.
[/spoiler]
Level 3:  Weapon Focus (for Ordained Champ)

Education is needed since you loose access to all of the knowledge Skills when you get the Feat from the Domain .... Criminal Background adds some useful Class Skills and is lots of fun

Might work better if you worshiped an Ideal and took the Kobold Domain(Gain Trapfinding and Disable Device and Search are also added to your class Skills)

 :D

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2010, 07:31:05 PM »

looks like you have a pretty good idea already .... all i would do is this, adjust your stats as follows:

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12

also if your were interested in a Rogueish type Cleric Build, you might try this:

Feats:  
Domain Switch:  (Law Devotion), (Knowledge Devotion)
Human: Education
Level 1: Criminal Background  [spoiler]CRIMINAL BACKGROUND(City of Stormreach,p95)
You come from a long line of pirates, outlaws, or sneak thieves. Your instincts are bent toward illicit gain and self-preservation above all else.
Benefit: Bluff, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand are all considered class skills. In addition, when observing an individual, you can make a DC 15 Sense Motive check to ascertain any criminal motives. You also gain a +4 bonus on Gather Information checks involving crime and criminals.
Special: You must take this feat at 1st level.
[/spoiler]
Level 3:  Weapon Focus (for Ordained Champ)

Education is needed since you loose access to all of the knowledge Skills when you get the Feat from the Domain .... Criminal Background adds some useful Class Skills and is lots of fun

Might work better if you worshiped an Ideal and took the Kobold Domain(Gain Trapfinding and Disable Device and Search are also added to your class Skills)

 :D


Thanks for the response!  The Criminal Background feat looks interesting, thanks for pointing it out.  Anyways, worshipping an ideal doesn't fit with my character from a roleplaying perspective, so that's out.  In any case, I'm content to let the Beguiler handle the trapfinding.

Why, exactly, the change to Wisdom though?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 07:38:47 PM by Godless_Paladin »

carnivore

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2010, 07:32:12 PM »
then i would still adjust the stats ... and make sure you take Education

 :D

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 01:36:41 AM »
Alright, any other advice for a fighting cleric that doesn't want to use DMM:Persist (DMM:  Any other metamagic is fine, mind) down the line?

-What are good feat choices down the line?  You may notice I've got a lot of ??? slots there.

-How can I optimize my knowledge skills? Between Collector of Stories, a masterwork tool, Education, and 5 ranks, I've already got a very solid bonus, but what else is there?

-Why Int 12 instead of Wis 16?

-What are good spells to Channel as an Ordained Champion?

-Is Travel Devotion worth picking up with a regular feat slot?  Or should I just bite the bullet and not have anything to use my domain slots on until I pick up Church Inquisitor / Oracle / Ordained Champ (and thus 3 more domains) and take Travel Devotion without a feat slot?

-Any combat feats worth a particular mention besides good ol' Power Attack?  Especially since I can give up a slot for one with the first level of Ordained Champion.

Solo

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 01:48:53 AM »
Travel domain's great.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 02:19:49 AM »
Do DMM: Quicken instead of DMM: Persistent!
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Solo

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2010, 02:26:56 AM »
Persist.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2010, 02:36:42 AM »
Quicken gives you more versatility at the cost of some direct power with persist. Typical (playable) builds can only persist 2-4 spells, even with extended persist. Same build could quicken 5-6 spells per day and has an extra feat open (not that extend is a bad feat).

I'm playing a DMM:Quicken Cleric now, and it is quite nice, even in a heavily optimized game. Quickened dispels, quickened moon bolts, silence, fly...etc.

vilenatas

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2010, 02:40:17 AM »
If stealthy you might be able to refluff shadowcraft mage and become a shadowcraft cloistered cleric.

Otherwise I would think seriously about trying to get abjurant champion for cleric if you get access to book of exalted deeds luminous armor spells.  Combining those with the ability to spontaneously cast any of those spells as a cleric is pretty awesome.  The take prestige paladin and the serenity feat so you get wis to saves and can dump charisma if you end up going dmm quicken.  If your dm allows it take battle blessing and depending on your interpretation you may get enough(possibly all since your cleric spells are now your paladin spells) swift action spells to not need dmm quicken.

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 03:24:37 AM »
Any other potential feat suggestions?

Rebel7284

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 03:34:42 AM »
If you are in an optimized party... any particular reason why you are against DMM Persist?  It's certainly the most optimized way to create a melee Cleric.

Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/RKV 7/Prestige Paladin 1 is certainly sexy and playable at all levels.
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Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2010, 03:46:26 AM »
If you are in an optimized party... any particular reason why you are against DMM Persist?  It's certainly the most optimized way to create a melee Cleric.
 Short answer:  Because DMM:Persist is not allowed by the DM.

Longer answer:  [spoiler]Various transformation abuses (like alter selfing into a dwarven ancestor) are not allowed.  Celerity is not allowed.  Planar Shephards aren't allowed.  Certain things involving kobolds are not allowed.  Iron Heart Surge's wording is corrected so that it does not put out the sun.  The players may include old CO veterans, and their characters are effective, but only within the limits of cutting off the very top tier tactics, and it just so turned out that DMM:P was considered in that category (though DMM:anything else isn't).  As a DMM cleric I can walk around at level 5 invulnerable to most forms of CR5 monster attack with Divine Retaliation and a Balor Nimbus up and hit things for average 55 damage (of whatever elemental type I feel like substituting an Ice Axe for that day) a shot all day, or at least until I meet a foe specifically ready to dismantle my buffs by getting around things like a dispel magic spellblade (or whatever anti-dispel tactics are available), and after that I still have the utility of a full caster with an unbounded list of stuff to prepare.  Even if some may disagree that DMM:P is "that damn good," most can at the very least say that DMM:P is a *game centering* tactic.[/spoiler]

Hope that answer helps.

Quote
Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/RKV 7/Prestige Paladin 1 is certainly sexy and playable at all levels.
 Alright, I'll look into that.  Can you give any advice besides just the class combos, though?  It''s the feats, mainly, where I'm getting hung up.  I'm just not sure what to fill those feat slots with.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:08:14 AM by Godless_Paladin »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2010, 05:40:00 AM »
You might want to consider the combination of DMM: heighten and reserve feats.
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Mixster

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Re: Help building a low level cleric!
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2010, 10:04:25 AM »
Quote
Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/RKV 7/Prestige Paladin 1 is certainly sexy and playable at all levels.
 Alright, I'll look into that.  Can you give any advice besides just the class combos, though?  It''s the feats, mainly, where I'm getting hung up.  I'm just not sure what to fill those feat slots with.

Such a class would do great with travel devotion (for being pretty fast with RKV), knowledge devotion (for hitting and dealing damage) and the holy Warrior feat (for dealing extra damage equal to your highest level spell-slot). I for one would probably use a cloistered cleric of something with war domain and a decent favored weapon (greatsword would be best) and some other useful domain, spell domain is a good all-round domain for example.
Going into ordained champion could also be an option, though you'll lose more caster levels and wont get 9th level spells, you'll still be quite deadly in the middle levels, because Ordained champion has a lot of useful tricks.
Bone Knight is also a decent class for these shenanigans. Since he basically get's undead immunity without any real downside.

However, most close combat clerics want a long lasting divine power to be really useful, and you will still lack that. Consider just dipping 1 or 2 levels of cleric as to not lose too much BAB and then going into crusader, RKV and into prestige paladin or boneknight from there.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Arz

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Re: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2010, 06:43:28 PM »
Divine Defiance -  :fo other casters, only my spells count. Just keep tons of dispels about.

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2010, 07:20:43 PM »
Divine Defiance -  :fo other casters, only my spells count. Just keep tons of dispels about.

Hmm, even better with Inquisition Domain from the practically-freebie domain from Church Inquisitor. :plotting

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2010, 01:56:51 AM »
*bump* What about spells?  I know of Blade of Blood and such for level 1 spells, but what about level 2 and 3 spells?  The Cleric handbook honestly seems woefully incomplete here (didn't even have Blade of Blood on the list of good level 1 spells)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:58:24 AM by Godless_Paladin »

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help building a low level cleric! (Without DMM:P)
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 10:37:33 AM »
An extra thought on Travel Devotion:  You still get Swift actions when Disabled, right?  So if I took travel devotion, I could move as a swift action and attack while using the Diehard / Delay Death combo (and Diehard is free from Ordained Champion!)