Author Topic: Lily, Angel of Injection  (Read 4296 times)

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Sobolev

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2010, 12:09:49 PM »
By the very nature of the game, saying that something isn't comprehensive is not a legitimate argument to say that the RAW condones something other than what's been explicitly statted out.  In other words, spell storing melee weapons are RAW because they are explicitly listed.  Spell storing arrows are not, because they aren't.

There exists a "list of enchantments which can be applied to objects of the subclass 'weapons'"
Of the set of "enchantments which can be applied to objects of the subclass 'weapons'", there exist some enchantments which explicitly state that they are "enchantments which can be applied only to the 'melee' subset of 'weapons'" or "enchantments which can be applied to the 'ranged' subset of 'weapons'"

There also exists a "table of enchanted weapons that can be randomly generated".

My assertion is that if a weapon A belongs to the "subset of 'weapons'", then it is a valid target for any enchantment B on the "list of enchantments which can be applied to objects of the subclass 'weapons'", provided
NOT((A is not member of the "melee subset of weapons")&&(B is a "enchantment which can be applied only to the 'melee' subset of 'weapons'"))
&&
NOT((A is not member of the "ranged subset of weapons")&&(B is a "enchantment which can be applied only to the 'ranged' subset of 'weapons'"))


That is, in plain English, the list of weapon enchantments just says they're enchantments for weapons.  Some enchantments specify melee only or ranged only.  Others do not.  Since the text says "these things can be applied to weapons", and arrows are weapons, who cares about what a random weapon generator says (unless you want to somehow put "roll again twice" as a weapon enchantment).
I do not refute any of this, but my concern lies in the actual truth values of the relevant statements, especially "enchantment which can be applied only to the 'melee' subset of 'weapons'."  The table, which could very well be a simple random treasure table, implies to me that the truth value of this statement is T, and that "A is not member of the 'melee subset of weapons'" is also T because arrows are ammunition.  As a result, the conjunction of the two statements is also T, the negation changes it to F, and, therefore, regardless of the truth value of the other conjunction, the final result is F, and as such Spell Storing cannot be applied to Arrows.

That said, since my post the OP has noted this concern and stated that it will be a likely houserule that Spell Storing arrows can be made, anyway.  Therefore, I change my position to this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful

Using a Merciful Shortbow (or, even better, a Merciful Sling) will cause some nonlethal damage to your allies, but it guarantees that you'll never be the one that kills them.  If the nonlethal damage becomes problematic, use wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor between battles to recover.

Do you think the extra damage will be a problem?
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2010, 12:27:56 PM »
Why don't you use shuriken? If your character is small they'll only do 1 point of damage. Hmm... would silvered shuriken do 0 damage, then? :P The range might be a problem, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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[/spoiler]

Sobolev

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2010, 01:11:35 PM »
This is not the first time this has come up, but I was always under the impression that spell-storing could only be applied to melee weapons.  For example, it's only under the melee weapon special abilities here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

This makes this plan either impossible, or very expensive -- 8k for each spell-storing weapon minimum.  Maybe Kensai's +10% for every extra natural weapon can help defray some of the cost.  

That list hardly seems complete, I think it's just for random generation purposes.

Additionally, weapon properties applied to projectiles is for 50, so it's only 160gp per arrow.  And then if you make them I guess it's 80.  It doesn't seem that bad to me.

Edit: Assuming I go the Telekinesis route, what do I do at lower levels.  Also DMM/Chain?  Archivist 9/Cleric 1/Dweomerkeeper 10? =D

Sorcerer 2/Rainbow Servant 10/Incantatrix 4/Dweomerkeeper 4

Also gets full access to Sorc's action novas, reformatting of spells/feats on the fly thanks to Persistent Unfettered Heroism/Supernatural Limited Wish (PsyRef), ready access to any crafting you want (PsyRef), 20/20 casting, metamagic effect, 3 extra spells known (detect evil, thoughts, and chaos), 2 more that are mutable (Mantle of Spells 1 and 2), and 2 free metamagic feats.  Any feat not needed for PrC's (which after getting into RS is all of them other than two metamagic feats and Iron Will bought from the O-hole) is also Psy-able, meaning any combo/trick you want that day is all yours.

You still lost me.  Versatile Spellcaster to let you cast level 2's?  It says you convert two level 1's in to a level 2 that you know, and you know 0 before you get access to them.

Edit: Never mind, got it.  This might be a little higher on the cheese factor than would be allowed with most people I play with, I'll have to look in to it.  I would actually like to play in a high optimization game some time, but I doubt it will ever materialize.  That being said, I checked with a friend of mine and he thought this idea was amazing/hilarious.  So I think I'll be able to slide the shooting people with arrows of awesome in to a game of his.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 01:24:15 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2010, 01:25:17 PM »
I've played in two RL games that allow that level of (ab)use.  At that point, the arms race between the DM and the players boils down to simple number crunching, and it isn't fun.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2010, 02:01:40 PM »
I've played with that in an RL game and it wasn't an issue.  So, YMMV.
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Sobolev

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2010, 07:02:00 PM »

Lily, Angel of Injection
Human Sorcerer 2/Rainbow Servant 10/Incantatrix 4/Dweomerkeeper 4
1st: Sanctum Spell
Flaw: Versatile Spellcaster (Unobservant or whatever that one is)
Human: Heighten Spell

Merciful Short Bow

PB
Str Ditch Dex Good Con Good Int Meh Wis Sure Cha OMGZ Yes

Reformat as necessary.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2010, 08:04:34 PM »
Hrrm, foiled version of the needle, looks better. Play YGO much?

Anyway, as far as power goes, you're very well of.
Though I dislike early entry trickery into Rainbow Servant, just remember to point out to you DM that text trumphs table since the text makes RS a 10/10 spellcasting class while the table make it a 6/10 IIRC.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Bozwevial

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2010, 08:16:52 PM »
Why don't you use shuriken? If your character is small they'll only do 1 point of damage. Hmm... would silvered shuriken do 0 damage, then? :P The range might be a problem, though.
Hits always deal a minimum of 1 point of damage, even if penalties would reduce it to or below 0, IIRC.

X-Codes

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2010, 08:44:33 PM »
Why don't you use shuriken? If your character is small they'll only do 1 point of damage. Hmm... would silvered shuriken do 0 damage, then? :P The range might be a problem, though.
Hits always deal a minimum of 1 point of damage, even if penalties would reduce it to or below 0, IIRC.
Sad, but true.  Plus, I think spell storing shuriken would be a harder sell than spell storing arrows (shuriken can't be used as melee weapons).

Endarire

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2010, 08:48:59 PM »
Why -can't- I stab someone with a shuriken?

Anything that can impact another thing can be used as a melee weapon!  It makes perfect sense!
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Bozwevial

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2010, 08:51:55 PM »
Why -can't- I stab someone with a shuriken?

Anything that can impact another thing can be used as a melee weapon!  It makes perfect sense!
And why can't you dig a shuriken out of someone's skull and reuse it? They aren't made of tinfoil.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2010, 09:21:26 PM »
Why -can't- I stab someone with a shuriken?

Anything that can impact another thing can be used as a melee weapon!  It makes perfect sense!
Because if you stab someone with it the spikes on the other side stab into you.
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Sobolev

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Re: Lily, Angel of Injection
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2010, 09:28:23 PM »
Hrrm, foiled version of the needle, looks better. Play YGO much?

Anyway, as far as power goes, you're very well of.
Though I dislike early entry trickery into Rainbow Servant, just remember to point out to you DM that text trumphs table since the text makes RS a 10/10 spellcasting class while the table make it a 6/10 IIRC.

I actually don't, I just hang out in a gaming club, and someone mentioned it a long time ago and that seemed fitting.

Also, the idea is silly so I don't mind being silly with the build.  Maybe I should shove some Saint in to this.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.