Author Topic: Daggerspale PrCs  (Read 1727 times)

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Solo

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Daggerspale PrCs
« on: September 26, 2010, 04:21:14 AM »
So, can someone tell me what's up with them, the Daggerspell Shaper in specific?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2010, 05:12:57 AM »
need nonevil, 8 ranks concentration, twf, wf(dagger), wildshape, and a sneak/skirmish die

gain 6/level skills
cast while dual wielding daggers without somatic/material component worries
deliver touch spells with dagger (melee touch or melee attack)
mild wildshape progression (large/tiny, +3/day, levels stack fro duration)
gain the benefits of magic daggers while wildshaped (replaces the natural attack of the limb that would hold the dagger)
progresses divine casting except at 1st level
+3d6 sneak
keep +con/dex/str gear bonus when wildshaped
wildshape as a move action
capstone: free quicken spell as part of a full round attack with daggers, no level adjust, dex bonus/day

Solo

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2010, 05:17:49 AM »
I've heard it described at a +1 tier prestige class. Think it's justified?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

X-Codes

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2010, 06:03:54 AM »
If you mean +1 in that it turns Tier 1 Druids into Tier 2 Characters, yes.  Since 5 levels of Druid are essentially required to take the class, it's really only downhill from there.

If you apply it to a Wildshape Ranger, then it could easily slip to Tier 4.  Wildshape Rangers waste the divine casting progression and the free quickened spells, and the Sneak Attack gained from the class is far inferior to the Skirmish dice the Ranger could get by simply taking more Ranger levels with Swift Hunter.  They're practically mandated to take a level of Scout to qualify, even.  It's possible that such a grim fate could be averted with an Archivist or Cleric dip, but at that point we'd be making an overly-complicated Druid Wannabie.

Daggerspell Mage isn't much better.  The capstone sells itself as the ability to cast while making a full attack, but you should be reading it as you are able to make a lot of weak attacks in melee while casting one of your Armageddon spells, and then not follow it up with a quickened spell.  As a result, I'd say that it easily drops Wizard and Sorcerer bases to tiers 2 and 3, respectively.  If added to a Rogue base, however, the resulting character could probably raise their stature to tier 3.

ImmortalSoul

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2010, 09:28:15 AM »
I love the idea and thought about playing one several times, but dual wielding two daggers is just not want you want to be doing most of the time. Straight druid/wizard/whatever seems so far superior.
That being said, for the few sessions I played a Daggerspell Shaper I actually had some fun with it, but mostly because the rest of the group was absolutely un-optimized and the adventure we played allowed for a lot of out-of-combat opportunities (with tiny wildshape and the like) for the character to be useful. If the DM allows an early entrace you might actually make use of at least some levels.

Bauglir

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 03:00:19 PM »
As it deals with full-casting, you do need to sort of calibrate what you're considering your base tier to be. It's a buff for a non-spellcaster base because it progresses spellcasting, but it loses caster levels and doesn't grant anything awesometastic like, say, Swiftblade does, so it's more or less certainly a debuff.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

raith0

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 08:26:32 PM »
who put them at +1 i would say at best +0 for rogue based gishes  but maybe the shaper on a wildshape mystic ranger/ rogue would be a +1 but thats rather a specific build for it work the best.

but now that i think about it that sounds like a nice fun build for my current gaming group since we have a pair of players who are extremely new to the game.

X-Codes

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 09:10:50 PM »
who put them at +1 i would say at best +0 for rogue based gishes  but maybe the shaper on a wildshape mystic ranger/ rogue would be a +1 but thats rather a specific build for it work the best.

but now that i think about it that sounds like a nice fun build for my current gaming group since we have a pair of players who are extremely new to the game.
I think the +1 means it takes a tier 1 base and makes it tier 2 (1 + 1 = 2), even though the implication is that +1 is 1 better.

Solo

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 09:18:18 PM »
I suspects it makes you weaker since it takes away from being a pure druid.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Nunkuruji

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 09:54:46 PM »
Daggerspell Mage seems to be another PrC that's perhaps nice to enter with the Generic Spellcaster.

In my mind I see it being built as an assassin. Double Hit, Sneak Attack->Debuff Feat, Save debuff in first dagger, Save or Die/Suck/Lose in the second dagger.
Perhaps pick up Death Attack with another dip.
Throw in some creation/poison I suppose.
Skill up the stealth skills, as well as the usual utility spells.

Of course, several of the class features can be replicated with items anyways, and it's not like full casters can just melt faces anyways.

skydragonknight

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 10:02:32 PM »
It's crap.
"Levels of the daggerspell shaper stack with druid levels for the purpose of determining the maximum duration of the wild shape ability; they do not stack for any other purpose (such as the size and type of creature that a shaper can become)."

The wild shape progression does not advance the maximum hit dice of what you can wild shape into.
The errata fixes the master of many forms, but not the daggerspell shaper. Tier 5 trash PrC, under RAW.

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With a reasonable interpretation, and in a game without wilding clasps, I can see some use for the PrC, since I find the druid spell list to be the weakest of the three major spell lists, so losing two levels for 4 sneak attack dice there is not the end of the world.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 10:08:18 PM by skydragonknight »
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Bozwevial

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2010, 10:51:13 PM »
Eh, those two caster levels kind of outweigh the sneak attack dice for me. It's easy to pick up extra damage here and there, caster levels are more versatile (even for the druid).

skydragonknight

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Re: Daggerspale PrCs
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2010, 11:13:47 PM »
It honestly depends on the rest of the party. If there's a fair amount of spellcasters, then two caster levels for 4 extra damage dice and better skill points is a fair trade option that would let you fill the rogue and fighter frontliner niches. Conversely, if it's a melee heavy party, you should stick with straight druid for full options and use your feats to choose what to be best at.
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