Author Topic: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?  (Read 9397 times)

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jameswilliamogle

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Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« on: September 25, 2010, 11:46:28 AM »
Lets play with one of the most iconic non-setting specific "paranoid wizard" type of builds.  Its feat efficient, only requiring 1 feat and getting everything for Iot7V in just a few levels of Master Specialist.  They have 6 free feat slots which could be used for anything.  These builds are really, really good at staying alive...  But I was just curious what you could do offensively with the typical setup at L1, L5, L10, L15, L20.  What spell tricks / feat selections could turn your defense into offense?  Is there a way to take advantage of those spell focus feats offensively in combat?  I'm going to work with focused specialist, too, to really overemphasize the abjuration.

Abjurer (Focused Specialist) 3 / Master Specialist 10 (4-13) / Iot7V 7 (14-20)
Banned - Necromancy, Enchantment, Evocation
I'm doing it in this order (ie, finishing out Master Specialist first) because one of the coolest offensive tricks available is to cast an AMF on a Fighter-type to go after enemy spellcasters / users.  I know, delaying that 4th level veil is kind of scary, but we're talking about offense, here.

1,b
3 Spell Focus: Abjuration
4b - Skill Focus: Spellcraft
6,b - Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
9
12
15
18

Crib notes:
Master Spec - bonus on dispelling = 1/2 MS level, 4th; CL(abj) +2, 6th, 9th; get the equivalent of Mettle and Evasion for all spells (not just damaging ones), 7th; can cast abjuration spell that is "personal" as a touch spell 3/day, 10th
Iot7V - Well, its all defense, unless I'm mistaken.  There's one offensive ability at the terminal level that's once per day, and admittedly is pretty awesome, but that 1/day means a bit unreliable, too.

In the spirit of what the build is, I think that using setting-specific feats and spells shouldn't be used, but if they're really good suggestions, thats cool, too (Reactive Counterspell, or whatever, I think is in a Faerun book, if I remember right, and is definitely awesome-sauce).

EDIT: My worry is that this build is just too defensively minded for regular play, and that the (admittedly cool) tricks they can pull off just aren't worth investing so many levels into.  I also was curious about whether its good to finish out Master Spec first or Iot7V first.  The current build gets the deliverable AMF at L13, where going into Iot7V earlier would get reactive warding at L11.  Which is better?  IDK.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 12:04:22 PM by jameswilliamogle »

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 12:00:16 PM »
Core:
Banishment / Dismissal (situational save or die)
Explosive Runes (3rd)
Imprisonment (9th)
Prismatic Wall / Sphere (8th, 9th)
Repulsion (could work as battlefield control, but IDK, 6th)
...and that's it.

PHB2:
Slashing Dispel (situational, 4th)
Condemnation (situational, 4th)

Complete Mage:
Karmic Aura / Karmic Backlash / Karmic Retribution (still not that great, but is debuff, 1st, 2nd, 6th)

Spell Compendium:
Earth Lock (really good, but situational, still, 2nd)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (situational, 2nd)
Eradicate Earth (hah, funny 3rd)
Sign of Sealing (how is it better than explosive runes? 3rd)
Reverse Arrows (3rd)
Wall of Good (heh, some decent battlefield control that targets only enemies, nice 4th)
Reciprocal Gyre (this looks very interesting... 5th)
Absorption (9th)
Reaving Dispel (9th)
Maw of Chaos (9th, the wickedest one they get)

Dragon Magic
Justice of the Wyrm King (heh, cool, but by this point not so much damage; should've been 4th level, 7th)

Frostburn
Icicle (hey, pretty nice 4d6 selective trap; good damage for this level thanks, man! 2nd)

OK, so this is looking more and more like the old trentmonk's list.  By its very nature, there shouldn't be a lot of offensive spells in this school.

So, Explosive Runes looks like the main tool to use.  

I feel like there should be some really slick way to use Reciprocal Gyre in some way; it reminds me of the Mesmer class in Guild Wars in function (they would basically cast a lot of debuffs which punished the enemy for attacking anyone through damage-loops, then finish it up with a big effect which would do massive damage based on the number of spells cast on it, ie, penalize them first to do anything, then do big damage because they had so many curses).  Maybe use a familiar and UMD to deliver minor debuffs every round, even if they don't stack, and keep hitting them with the spell?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 05:17:40 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Cannotthink

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 12:33:56 PM »
Frostburn gets you Icicle. Level 2 spell, makes a cool trap that deals 4d6 damage.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 12:48:08 PM »
Thanks, good one!

Solo

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 03:49:00 PM »
Remember, people, that Maw of Chaos is an abjuration spell.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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raith0

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2010, 04:56:04 PM »
i have played a focus specialist abjurer before and while yes its very defensive build and you dont have a lot at low levels you do really start to shine around level 7. 

I banned - Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation.
so low levels i did a lot with grease,  and summons from conjuration.  no i wasnt the best at them but they did there part.  when 4th level spells were available i was able to do a small amount of blasting with orbs of force. 

i find the reactive veil to be more important than putting an antimagic shell on a fighter type.  while a nice trick and it can be effective i just wouldnt let opposing spell casters cast a meaningful spell.  my belt of battle was key to this but all in all covering battlefield control and throwing out some minor buffs like haste was a typical tactic. 

ron

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2010, 05:24:09 PM »
Remember, people, that Maw of Chaos is an abjuration spell.
Thanks, added.  I don't play a lot of L17+ games, so I tend to forget those higher level ones.

Thanks for the input, raith0.  So, basically, an abjurer isn't an abjurer until about L7, and the reactive veil is more important.  Thats interesting.  So, maybe a strategy is to put up the wall / veil as a standard action, then another one using Quicken SLA of lower power, then another using reactive veil, all to keep the enemy in a narrow area?  ie, use the veils as battlefield control?  Is this viable, practically, or are enemies just too strong to worry about the damage they undergo?


raith0

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2010, 07:47:30 PM »
you can use the veils as battlefield control.  it can and does work well if you place them right.  and dont forget if you get the save DC high enough the walls do add up.  and dont forget you dont need huge numbers for damage with things if it slows or stops movement its doing its job.  and the veils all have good effects on mundane items and weapons.  so depending on your DM they may stop all arrows unless the arrows themselves are enchanted not the bow. 

fun ways to get your DC high enough are the cold spell eshew materials trick with gold focus and greater cold focus.  or draconic aura and the dragonblood subtype. both of wich stack with eachother.

Ron 

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2010, 08:50:24 PM »
The most offensive one would probably be built using a different game system

Like FATAL.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2010, 09:06:09 PM »
The most offensive one would probably be built using a different game system

Like FATAL.
Thanks, thats useful.

Does Cold Focus and Greater Cold Focus / Snowcasting work with anything?  It doesn't seem worth a damn except for with a few select spells.  Am I missing something?

Endarire

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2010, 09:22:28 PM »
While more feat-intensive, you will likely get more from this sort of build as a Conjurer.

I prefer Conjurer5/Incantatrix3 or 4/Master Conjurer1/Veil7.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

dark_samuari

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2010, 09:29:45 PM »
What about something like Male Middle-Aged Human Sorcerer 5/Sandshaper 1/Incantrix 8/Initiate of the Seven Fold 6?

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2010, 09:50:05 PM »
So, basically forget the Master Spec part and instead play just another type of caster?  Interesting, but I haven't any experience with it.

Azrael

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2010, 09:53:19 PM »
How about the feat reach spell and casting the AMF on the enemy caster, instead of relying on the fighter. I mean, if you want to put AMF on the fighter you could do that at level 11 with a normal wizard. Just take that feat that allows your familiar to have spells cast on it when its more than 5ft away from you and cast the AMF on the familiar, then it flys to the caster...use an immediate action or belt of battle to place a wall of force around them both and you win!

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2010, 09:59:20 PM »
The vast majority of DMs I play with don't allow Reach Spell to apply to Personal Range spells.  And it does allow for some serious cheese, so I don't mind ignoring it.  The familiar trick is nice, though, no doubt.

raith0

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 10:49:43 PM »

[/quote]

Does Cold Focus and Greater Cold Focus / Snowcasting work with anything?  It doesn't seem worth a damn except for with a few select spells.  Am I missing something?
[/quote]

yes you use eschew materials to give the Cold Descriptor to all your spells.   spells can have a descripter like cold, good, evil, or fire added to them without it needing a damage type. 

this is legal by RAW as Snow and Ice have no value.  i would check with your DM because it is a bit cheesy and they may not like/allow it. 
and if you cant use reach spell for personal buffs you can allways make them occular spells and then apply reach if needed.  Occular spell from Lords of Maddness lets you shoot a spell out of your eye as a ray

Ron

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 11:03:57 PM »
Yeah, the arguments against Ocular are the same against Reach.  Same deal.

I know about the cold/snowcasting thing (and yes, I agree its also cheesey, but less than reach/ocular).  I just don't see it as all that worth it, unlike with some other schools (enchantment, necromancy) because the defensive focus means that most spells don't have to really worry about saves.  Besides, the build already has 2 spell focus feats; more just seems over redundant.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 11:09:29 PM by jameswilliamogle »

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 11:06:41 PM »
I seem to remember a dual-specialization ACF...

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 11:12:33 PM »
I seem to remember a dual-specialization ACF...
That is the changeling sub level in RoEb, right? Illusion and Transmutation, only...  Not bad schools to go for, normally.

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Re: Most offensive Abjurer / Master Specialist / Iot7V build?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 11:20:43 PM »
I seem to remember a dual-specialization ACF...
That is the changeling sub level in RoEb, right? Illusion and Transmutation, only...  Not bad schools to go for, normally.
Must be what I was thinking of.  Shame that it's only those two.  If you could dual-specialize Abjuration and Conjuration, that'd be pretty sweet.