Warblade 1-20 or Crusader 1-20

[ImmortalSoul]

Hi again.

Some of you may or may not remember my thread on building a cloistered cleric for The Shackled City some weeks ago. In it, I stated that it would probably be utterly impossible to convince the players in our group who chose to go Paladin and Fighter to opt for Warblade and Crusader instead.

Well, I have been correct with the paladin, but not for the fighter: to my great surprise when I mentioned that there was this possibility to be a stronger and more versatile melee combatant with ToB - and how about trying it? - and after explaining the basics of warblade and crusader to him, he said he'd really prefer them over just going fighter or barbarian. Which is awesome for our group in terms of survivability, so I'd like to make something of it. He wants me to help him building it, though.

As I have never played either, I've read the ToB build compendium, the Warblade handbook and some suggestions but have not quite found what I'm looking for as most of the builds seem to assume you either start some higher level or are willing to multiclass quite a lot. Or are human. Or get flaws. etc...

But I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, so these are the restrictions:

Race: Dwarf.
No templates. Our DM is thinking about letting him become a (slightly nerfed) mineral warrior over the course of the campaign. Useful?
No flaws.
Please only use one base class (one of either warblade or crusader) and one (or, better, no) PrCs.
32pb.
He'd like to not exclusively be the tanky guy but rather combine durability with some serious damage if possible.
The build has to be viable from level 1-20!

Some additional questions:

1) If you go warblade, would you choose a spiked chain or dual wield kukris? Or something entirely different?
2) Int > dex or Int < dex?
3) Should he use the phb dwarf or are there better variants?
4) Our group setup is going to be a skill monkey rogue, me (buffer/healer cleric) and him. Some of the time there will also be a power attacking paladin, but probably not all too often, so he should be able to dish out as well as take hits. It seems to me that Crusader excells at the latter while Warblade has the edge on the former. Would you agree? Because then I'd prefer Warblade.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Edit: Oh, forgot. All books allowed, including web enhancements. Some dragon, too, but I don't have access to many issues.

[Generic_PC]

Heh. You read the warblade handbook? All... half of it?

I'd go for Warblade. A crusader will really step on the Paladins toes, (Not that the Warblade won't make him feel extremely useless anyway, but...) and its closer to the general Fighter archetype than a crusader. Not only that, but Warblade 20 is a great build, because Dual Stance is such a powerful ability.

d12 hit dice will give you that durability (A con of 14 or so would also be wise) and maneuvers will give him damage.

Anyway, questions:

1) I, personally, would go with Kukris. Crusaders are better with the Spiked Chain because they have access to the stance Thicket of Blades without using feats. Dualwielding Keen Kukris and the Tiger Claw stance Blood in the Water can rack up some huge damage potential.

2) I'd get Dex. +AC and +Init. That being said, with 32PB, a stat array of 18S/14D/14Con/12Int/8Wis/8Cha would give you a bonus to Int and Dex.

I'll answer the other two when I have time, since I've got to run out.

[ImmortalSoul]

Okay, thanks

Questions, too:

Assume I'd do something like this:

Dwarf Warblade 1
with racial adjustments: Str. 16, Dex 15, 16 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 10 Cha (don't like having two penalties there, + I need 15 dex for TWF and 16 seems better)
Feat: TWF
Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Stanc: Punishing Stance

Opinions?

[Mixster]

I don't think TWF is the way to go.

You will be more effective at the early levels, but at higher levels one extra attack wont matter that much. And since you only have a dex of 15, you can never get iterative attacks with that off-hand weapon.

I would prefer wis over cha, since you don't really use cha for anything, but wis boosts your will save, so it is more important, and easier to get up to 10.

If you are going the TWF route with Kukhris, I'd prefer the blood in the water stance. It can go quite high with Keen Kukhris.

Also, remember to steer your character either towards Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics at level 5, because those manoeuvres are quite awesome.

[CantripN]

I'm gonna suggest something interesting I'd played a while back. It's a mix of Crusader and Warblade, mostly. It had worked really well at levels 1-12, which are the levels I'd played it at. It's really simple to play, has no PrCs, and is fun, to boot.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II?post_id=338403718#338403718

[ImmortalSoul]

If you are going the TWF route with Kukhris, I'd prefer the blood in the water stance. It can go quite high with Keen Kukhris.

That's what I wanted to do. But I thought choosing it on 4 would be better, because you don't really get any benefit out of it early on, do you?

you will be more effective at the early levels, but at higher levels one extra attack wont matter that much. And since you only have a dex of 15, you can never get iterative attacks with that off-hand weapon.

It sounded a lot like this build was actually stronger later on. I can just repeat what I read, though, as I have no experience with either option. What would you suggest, then?

@ CantripN

I don't think I got the main idea of this one. Mind to give me a short breakdown on how you played him (weapon choice, tactics)? I'm really rather new to this and have not yet encountered some of your feats. As a dwarf, I'd miss out on midnight dodge but that shouldn't be too much of a problem, no?

[CantripN]

Weapon was a Great Scimitar (Sandstorm), but you might as well use a Greatsword. Tactics were hit hard and fast, and retaliate REAL hard by sucking up the attacks (Stormguard Warrior).

It should play even better at levels 18+, when you get Heal every 2-3 rounds for free.

[dark_samuari]

Okay, thanks

Questions, too:

Assume I'd do something like this:

Dwarf Warblade 1
with racial adjustments: Str. 16, Dex 15, 16 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 10 Cha (don't like having two penalties there, + I need 15 dex for TWF and 16 seems better)
Feat: TWF
Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Stanc: Punishing Stance

Opinions?

You need to bump that intelligence if you are going Warblade.

Although if you end up looking at Crusader a fun and very simple build is Crusader 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Crusader 5.

[Endarire]

WIS is preferable to CHA in almost all cases.  10 WIS and 8 CHA gives +1 Will, +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and even +1 Profession!

[Mixster]

you will be more effective at the early levels, but at higher levels one extra attack wont matter that much. And since you only have a dex of 15, you can never get iterative attacks with that off-hand weapon.

It sounded a lot like this build was actually stronger later on. I can just repeat what I read, though, as I have no experience with either option. What would you suggest, then?

Well, a great sword is superior in damage output, so is a Falchion if you still want to go the crazy crit route. Mainly due to it hitting better, and dealing Strength * 1.5 on an attack and doubling power attack.
Also, TWF requires a lot of feats, while simply grabbing power attack is enough if you want to focus on the Two-handed style, freeing up a lot of feats for niftier things.
Grabbing exotic weapon profiency for a warblade can also be immensely useful, since you can play around with it and change the weapon you have profiency with by spending one hour, which is immensely useful. Grab a greatbow one day, and a Spiked chain the next.

If you throw your dex down to 12 you can pump your int to 14 instead, giving you a lot more from the nifty Int tricks a warblade has.

For PrCs I prefer the eternal blade, but it requires you to be an elf, so it's rather hard getting into as a dwarf.

[ImmortalSoul]

Points taken, thanks for your input

@ dark_samuari:
Thanks for the crusader build. It seems to be exactly what I was looking for, so this is probably one of two builds I'll suggest to him (the other being the Warblade I'm still working on).

New idea:

Dwarf Warblade 1
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 (after racial adjustments)
Feats and Maneuvers as CantripN suggested.

Better now? Or should I rather choose Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) first and thereby delay all of the other feats by one step? Range seems strong.

[Endarire]

Why not put the extra 2 points from CHA into WIS?  It ain't like you'll be talking most the time.

[CantripN]

If you can, go for Earth Dwarf (UA). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves

[ImmortalSoul]

Looks awesome, I'll take it to get strength to 18.

[qwvb]

I made a Warblade 20 once for a friend, it worked wonderfully. It's simple and effective.

You might not agree with maneuvers/stances, but it was to my friend taste.

[spoiler]

If you go Earth Dwarf with 32 pt buy, I would get 18/10/18/14/10/6.

Feats
[spoiler]
1- Power Attack,
3- Improved Bull Rush
5- Ironheart Aura
6- Stormguard Warrior
9- Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper
12- Robilar's Gambit
13- Stone Power
15- Leap Attack
17- Blind-Fight
18- Martial Study : Mountain Tombstone

Note : You might want to take Stone Power instead of Power Attack at level 1 and retrain it at level 13.
[/spoiler]
Maneuvers
[spoiler]
1- Sudden Leap, Steel Wind, Steely Strike
2- Stone Bones
3- Mountain Hammer
4- Stone Bones -> Wall of Blades
5- Iron Heart Surge
6- Steely Strike -> Bonecrusher
7- Death from Above
8- Steel Wind -> Bonesplitting Strike
9- Pouncing Chrage
10- Mountain Hammer -> Elder Mountain Strike
11- Manticore Parry
12- Bonecrusher -> Irresistible Mountain strike
13- Finishing Move
14- Wall of Blades -> Scything Blade
15- Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip
16- Death from Above -> Raging Mongoose
17- Strike of Perfect Clarity
18- Bonesplitting Strike -> Elder Mountain Hammer
19- Feral Death Blow
20- Scything Blade -> Adamantine Hurricane
[/spoiler]
Stances
[spoiler]
1- Punishing Stance
4- Hunter's Sense
10- either Giant's Stance or Leaping Dragon Stance
16- Supreme Blade Parry[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[Endarire]

Steely Strike is meh.  Get Wolf Fang Strike or Sapphire Nightmare Blade instead.