Author Topic: Need tank build help  (Read 5652 times)

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GawainBS

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2010, 06:18:35 AM »
2nd Edition was as much a numbers game as 3.5, only then the internet wasn't as prolific and thus people couldn't compare as much, and you had near-zero customisation option, so there wasn't really much to work with in the first place. Basicly, you played diced, which you described as "My Fighter swings at the Goblin!". Sorry to go off-topic, but this is kind of a pet-peeve of mine.

Taking one Bard level sucks, unless it's Bard1/Crusader19 and you take Song of the White Raven, which would make Inspire Courage stack and a Swift Action.
In short: in your case, the trade off isn't worth it, with only one lvl Crusader.
I'd go with Fighter 4 for the feats in the short-term, and the rest Crusader. Maybe with one lvl Bard for Song of the White Raven.
Advantages: Fighter 4: Bonus feats, Weapon Spec (which isn't good on its own, but opens up Melee Weapon Mastery, which gives +2 to hit, and is decent), earlier access to Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades and Standstill combo. Crusader15 for manouvres, which are awesome. Bard 1, as mentioned, with Crusader.

A straight-up Fighter gets boring really quick.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 06:25:10 AM by GawainBS »

Cavnar

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »
2nd Edition was as much a numbers game as 3.5, only then the internet wasn't as prolific and thus people couldn't compare as much, and you had near-zero customisation option, so there wasn't really much to work with in the first place. Basicly, you played diced, which you described as "My Fighter swings at the Goblin!". Sorry to go off-topic, but this is kind of a pet-peeve of mine.

In the actual swinging combat, it probably was.  But because so few of the things you can do besides swing were actually written down, they were DM rulings left up to the imaginations of the players.  You could do a lot of things to give you tactical advantages and such, and you just had to make it reasonable enough for the DM.  3.0 and 3.5 have taken most of the imagination out of it.  Now, you can come up with something, but there's either already a rule for it, or you have to come up with a way to couch it in d20 skill/challenge terms.  Either way, you have to already have the numbers.


Anyway, back on topic, I haven't actually looked at any of the other maneuvers.  I did see that the crusader gets his maneuvers randomized each round, so I was planning on sticking to just the feat-based stuff (mage slayer, deft opportunist, etc) and thicket of blades.  I've gotten bored of combat in 3.5 regardless of class.  At this point, I'd rather have a character with which I can do the exact same thing every encounter and still live.  So I'm leery of setting up a strategy relying on maneuvers that may or may not be there the next round.  And I don't need (or want) to do a lot of damage or anything so that the players that do like the combat can step up and do the damage without worry about getting killed.  Basically, I'm the side-kick, standing there holding the bad guy and going "Yeah, hit 'em good butch!" while the other guy punches him in the gut for the fun of it.  Then I can relax more during combat and enjoy the non-combat interactions later.  With that in mind, would it still be better to go crusader over fighter?  With crusader, it will take me longer to get the additional feats, so what does Crusader give me?

[/quote]

McPoyo

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 03:19:32 PM »
Actually, it makes it easier. You use your imagination to do whatever, then apply an existing mechanic to it. Much less likely to get shafted by a DM because of it now because he didn't like your style or flavor or ingenuity.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

GawainBS

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 03:45:09 PM »
Indeed, earlier editions left to much up to the DM, and hence got you shafted more often than not. Clear (at least, an effort to be clear) rules applicable to everybody only enhance a game, since it is fairer.

Anyway, the Manouvre randomisation isn't that bad: As someone once told me: a random pile of awesomeness is still awesome.
Crusader is tougher than Fighter, with Delayed Damage Pool (wether or not with Stone Power) and his healing Strikes. You also get more skillpoints from a better list, which means more out of combat interaction. Several Devouted Spirit manouvres help you with tanking, and White Raven makes the party cooperate better.
Bard with Song of the White Raven adds increased damage and to hit for the entire party.
The only feats you'll really need are EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.

If you somehow can be Large, there's "Large and in Charge", a feat from Draconomicon, which is Stand Still on steroids.

About damage: it's essential in two ways: 1. both Standstill and Large and in Charge depends on damage for the saving throw DC. 2.If you aren't enought of a threat, nobody will bother with you, which can be nefarious if you're fighting things that you can't lock down. Besides, the best way to prevent things from damaging your companions, is killing it. ;)

LordBlades

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2010, 12:35:32 PM »
The druid gets a class feature that mimics you. He doesn't need protecting, especially since he can just turn into a bear at level 5.

Remember, this is an unoptimized druid.  We have played them before, and they're not bad, but they were never front-line fighters.  If I remember correctly, they stayed more casting oriented than melee oriented.  Although I could be worrying unduly, as I haven't seen this particular player play one.



As others have said, I wouldn't worry about the druid.  :) Even if he's unoptimized, all he need to do is a smart choice of wild shape (usually Fleshraker dinosaur from MM3 below lvl 7, then best large bear available)+Bite of the were-whateverisavailableatthatlevel (awesome set of spells from Spell Compendium) and he'll be a better melee than the average fighter.

Endarire

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 07:52:28 PM »
A secondary 'tank' role is (Cloistered) Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX or Crusader4/(Cloisetered) Cleric1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX.

Starting at level 1, being a Crusader generally helps much more than Cleric.  It's your call.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Cavnar

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Re: Need tank build help
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2010, 03:39:10 AM »
The build I ended up with is Crusader 1/Fighter 3/Crusader 1/Fighter 15.  (was F3/C2, but I wanted C1 first for the extra skill points). Feat selection is...
1   Combat Reflexes, EWP (Chain)
2   Stand Still
3   Deft Opportunist, Weapon Focus
6   Precise Swing, Weapon Specialization
9   Occult Opportunist
9   Mage Slayer
10   Greater Weapon Focus
12   Pierce Magical Protection, Close Quarters Fighting
14   Greater Weapon Specialization
15   Abberation Blood
16   Robilar's Gambit
18   Overpowering Attack, Inhuman Reach
20   Defensive Sweep

I had to have some flavor somewhere, so I replaced Improved initiative and power attack with the Aberration feats, but I couldn't justify getting them earlier.  I've made a deal with my DM that the physical characteristics are present currently (long boneless arms), but that I don't have the coordination to put them to use until the feats kick in.

When we got to the game, we first found out that the module he is running (something from Kingdoms of Kalamar, sea and land based) was meant for a lot more characters (I forget how many).  So with only 3 players, he was planning on running 5 npc's.  We convinced him to up our initial level to 7 instead and just run an NPC cleric.  So I am 7th level.  The real twist, though, is that he is using the vitality/wound system.  He'll let us revamp the characters now that we know, so is there anything I can do with the chain lock build to really pound the critical hits?  Or, with con being so important in this system, would the psychic warrior lock be better (I don't remember where I saw it, but I saw something about a psychic warrior being a good lock build, and I think I recall that some psychic warriors have the power based on con, but I don't know if the two options are mutually exclusive or not).  Another option is to completely dump the character.  The player that was going to play the druid ended up with a ranger and the other player, who was originally going to go rogue, is a swashbuckler (apparently everything, including damage, is dex based, so he's kicking my butt at number of aoo, and he's got a 15-20 crit range).  So playing an optimized spell chucker is sounding more enticing now.  I don't know how it will affect things, but our DM wants to use some sort of point system.  I'm guessing a mana-based system probably modified from something in unearthed arcana.  Since I thought I was going to be the sole tank, I didn't pay much attention, but I'll get y'all details as soon as I get them from him.  I do know that the way he plans on using it, it made no sense to play a sorcerer at all.  And just the fact that it is non-standard is what kept the druid from wanting to play a magic user.

And honestly, if I play a caster, I really don't know what I want to play.  With two other fighters, I probably don't want to go with a war mage type character.  Some battlefield control will probably still be a good idea, if nothing else to funnel bodies to the fighters.  That's pretty much what my chain fighter did this last session, was just use the lock to hold people at bay while the swashbuckler stepped up with a full-attack and killed them.  But I don't want to be completely focused on that.  A beguiler might be nice, but I don't want to break the game either.  As I said, I really don't know where to go down the caster path.  All I've ever played are straight mages and that one necromancer.