Author Topic: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?  (Read 10582 times)

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Epimetheus

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2010, 06:13:13 AM »
Don't forget Conviction for the Saves and Divine Insight for the skills. Lore of the Gods for knowledge. Ebon Eyes helps for Magical Darkness too.

Benediction (CC) is only for those who want to help others, and why would we ever do that.

Gods_Trick

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2010, 11:31:10 AM »

  Good buff but I meant something different. How many buffs would you'd throw on if 1) combats started, 2) you're (somehow) unbuffed and, 3)its a no DMM game.

  In those circumstance, I'd throw on magic vestment, and move into combat as a flank. Next round beat the concentration DC to cast without provoking AoO and either finish the fight with the right spell or buff up with Divine Power and show the beatstick how its done.

Mixster

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2010, 12:03:51 PM »

  Good buff but I meant something different. How many buffs would you'd throw on if 1) combats started, 2) you're (somehow) unbuffed and, 3)its a no DMM game.

  In those circumstance, I'd throw on magic vestment, and move into combat as a flank. Next round beat the concentration DC to cast without provoking AoO and either finish the fight with the right spell or buff up with Divine Power and show the beatstick how its done.

Well that depends both on my level and my build. Since there is close to no reason not to take a load of PrCs as cleric, I would probably not be a single classed cleric at higher levels. And as soon as you get prestige paladin you'll get full weapon training even though you just started as a wimpy cloistered cleric.

And, a cloistered cleric can basically have knowledge devotion for free, which is at least +1 on attack and damage rolls, which means a level 1 cloistered cleric with a war domain fights pretty much as well as a level 1 fighter.

If I had no rounds to pre-buff (which rarely comes up, even a lesser rod of extend means that even at low levels buffs like greater magic weapon can last all day), I would probably not buff in combat but just summon, or I could throw on Divine power, and I wouldn't need much more (I probably have a sick AC already, because that's what clerics do).

The worse thing is the druid, who still without natural spell can be quite decent. It is the best feat for druids atm, but there really aren't many good feats for druids IMO. Not at the low levels anyway. It's mainly natural spell, and greenbound summoning. Not much else. Now he can't cast spells while wild-shaped, so what? His wild shape still gives him stats that fighters can only dream of, and his animal companion is still laying down heaps of damage. And he can summon if he doesn't wish to wild shape. With greenbound summoning, those summons beat most level appropriate encounters by themselves. (A greenbound crocodile has a strength of 25, and a DR of 10/Magic and Slashing, as well as a total of +13 to grapple, the druid can summon this funky cousin on level 3, please point me to anything that can beat this that is CR3, and it gets worse if you look at the monstrosity that is the greenbound wolf at first level, luckily it only exists for one round, but that's long enough for the wolf to trip anything you want it to).

I think the idea of buffing the other classes is better, but you'd have to re-write them entirely, or re-write the entire system, which is sorta like a long job.
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Rebel7284

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2010, 12:44:03 PM »
That's why you take Ashbound to auto-extend that wolf at level 1 in addition to giving it luck bonuses to attack and stuff :P
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Waazraath

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2010, 01:35:13 PM »

  Good buff but I meant something different. How many buffs would you'd throw on if 1) combats started, 2) you're (somehow) unbuffed and, 3)its a no DMM game.

  In those circumstance, I'd throw on magic vestment, and move into combat as a flank. Next round beat the concentration DC to cast without provoking AoO and either finish the fight with the right spell or buff up with Divine Power and show the beatstick how its done.

Except that, well... you woudn't be showing the beatstick how it's done, you'd be standing there already for 2 full rounds being the Waste of Space, while the rest of the party takes care of the threat. And after two rounds standing there, the result is not that special: another melee buddy in full plate, with full bab and a high AC.

I agree with Mixster that it depend on a lot of stuff what you could do, built and level, but also the rest of the party, your role in it and the threat you're facing. 

And, a cloistered cleric can basically have knowledge devotion for free, which is at least +1 on attack and damage rolls, which means a level 1 cloistered cleric with a war domain fights pretty much as well as a level 1 fighter.

Seriously... the cloistered cleric, with it's highest score in wis and the rest of it's abilities strechted out over con, cha and str? A d6 hd, simple weapon, light armor? I really don't see it being a match for a dedicated fighter at level 1 in a normal game.

Aren't we're getting a bit carried away by the uberness of the Cleric at low levels?

Godless_Paladin

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2010, 05:57:44 PM »

  Good buff but I meant something different. How many buffs would you'd throw on if 1) combats started, 2) you're (somehow) unbuffed and, 3)its a no DMM game.

  In those circumstance, I'd throw on magic vestment, and move into combat as a flank. Next round beat the concentration DC to cast without provoking AoO and either finish the fight with the right spell or buff up with Divine Power and show the beatstick how its done.

If combat started and there wasn't any DMM, I'd take at most one round to buff, barring swift and immediate actions in later rounds.  Probably less.  Short term buffs are something reserved for when I get the drop on the enemy via the party Corpse, or through divination.

Gods_Trick

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2010, 06:24:52 PM »

  Good buff but I meant something different. How many buffs would you'd throw on if 1) combats started, 2) you're (somehow) unbuffed and, 3)its a no DMM game.

  In those circumstance, I'd throw on magic vestment, and move into combat as a flank. Next round beat the concentration DC to cast without provoking AoO and either finish the fight with the right spell or buff up with Divine Power and show the beatstick how its done.

Except that, well... you woudn't be showing the beatstick how it's done, you'd be standing there already for 2 full rounds being the Waste of Space, while the rest of the party takes care of the threat. And after two rounds standing there, the result is not that special: another melee buddy in full plate, with full bab and a high AC.


Note the, 'either finish the fight or' clause; assuming the BSF has done its job and its either mop up via a damaging spell, or cast a spell to debuff the enemy more. OR is in case the enemy has a ton of HP, the BSF is not sufficient and/incapable of neutralising the enemy quickly.

So in total, first round you've provided a flank, not major but with my spell choice you should have the AC to do so safely. Second round you're ready to be useful in some way. This is not taking into account items that'll let me cast spells faster or spells with swift casting times.

This doesn't even touch the cleric archers since I haven't played that build, or the necromongers that have undead armies. Its that flexibility of choice that makes a cleric CODzilla I'd say.

Druids? Well heres the thing. I don't play with strong optimisers, but I never take Natural Spell. And my druids are still MVP, BSF and scout/stealth thrown into one.

Mixster

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2010, 07:17:40 PM »
Aren't we're getting a bit carried away by the uberness of the Cleric at low levels?


I completely agree, the classes are close to balanced at low levels. In low level campaigns, I usually don't even consider strength a dump stat for wizards, since stabbing people with a spear can work fairly well in most cases.

And a fighter is off course better than that.

But a cloistered cleric with KD, and Zen Archery is still a better archer at almost all levels than everyone else.

I agree that fighters and rangers and paladins and barbarians are quite powerful at low level, heck, the barbarian even more so with about +5 to hit and +6 to damage on level 1 without power attack is quite useful.

But still, Warblade is better, and so is Crusader. So instead I would accept that these are how the fighter, paladin and barbarian should work, and make them take those classes instead. And if I felt those classes were to restricted, I'd create an alternative where they got the maneuver sets that are more useful, or that feel more like a barbarian.

But actually you are right, at level 1 not much can topple the charging, power attacking barbarian. But it doesn't take long to do it, and even with grease or an animal companion it can be done. The cleric might not be the best choice here, but he sure is the best archer build.

Also, wouldn't all clerics in a world without DMM just exchange their turning power for something better? Or something that just doesn't suck, heck, I'd even want to get smite evil and aura of courage over just being able to turn undead without using them for DMM.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:19:22 PM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What would make Clerics and Druids no longer CoDzilla?
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2010, 08:25:47 PM »
Well, at low levels races tend to dominate (+2 strength > +1 BAB).
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