Need help finishing my minotaur cleric build.

[E-mail]

Hi there.

I am building a minoaur cleric, using the minotaur race from the DragonLance Campaign Setting. It seems like one hell of a +0LA race, but its birth are not without complications, and that is where your help is needed. I should mention that all non-campaign specific books are allowed, as well as the books specific to the DragonLance setting. All things of oriental flavor are banned though. The character will participate in a theoretically infinite campaign, so the build needs to be vaiable from level 1 and well into the epic levels.

Starting stats (stat before racial mods), 28 point PB:
Str: 20 (16)
Dex: 6 (8)
Con: 14
Int: 8 (10)
Wis: 15, all level bumps goes here.
Cha: 8 (10)

Deity:
Kiri-Jolith

Domains:
War
Strength

Level progression:-1: Cleric 1 Feat (Extra Turning), Bonus Feats (Weapon Proficiency & Focus: Longsword)
-2: Cleric 1
-3: Cleric 2 Feat (Extend Spell)
-4: Cleric 4
-5: Ordained Champion 1 Bonus Domain (Good), Bonus feat (Improved Initiative, Traded in for the Good domain power), Bonus feat (Power Attack, Traded in for the Strength domain power),
-6: Ordained Champion 2 Feat (Extra Turning), bonus feat (Diehard)
-7: Ordained Champion 3
-8: Ordained Champion 4 or an extra cleric level
-9: Cleric 5 Feat (Persist Spell)
-10: Cleric 6
-11: Cleric 7
-12: Cleric 8 Feat (DMM: Persist Spell)
-13: Church Inquisitor 1 Bonus Domain (Inquisition)
-14: Church Inquisitor 2
-15: Church Inquisitor 3 Feat (Extra Turning)
-16: Church Inquisitor 4
-17: Church Inquisitor 5
-18: Church Inquisitor 6 Feat (Quicken Spell)
-19: Church Inquisitor 7
-20: Church Inquisitor 8
-21: Church Inquisitor 9 Feat (Multispell)
-22: Church Inquisitor 10
-23: Epic Church Inquisitor 1
-24: Epic Church Inquisitor 2 Feat (Epic Spellcasting)

Skill requirements:
Must have 7 ranks in Knowledge (religion) by lvl 4
Must have 4 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana by lvl 12
Must have 24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion) by lvl 24
Must have maximum ranks in Spellcraft by level 24

The real challenge here is the skill points required to both qualify for my prestige classes, as well as developing epic spells when the time comes. The limited number of skill points are especially limiting early on, as I only just manage to qualify for Ordained Champ by level 4, and for Church Inquisitor by level 12 without a single skill point to spare. I also cannot afford a single point in Concentration at any time, if I am to get epic spells by level 24. Also, I am unsatisfied with the 8th level, as neither Ordained Champ 4 or Cleric 9 are especially optimized levels, but I am unable to think of any dip that I can qualify for with such a meager skill point total.

How would you improve this build?

[Rebel7284]

Add the half minotaur template? >_>

[fuinjutsu]

Cloistered Cleric would solve your skillpoint woes.

[X-Codes]

Egad, you point-bought those stats?  I was going to say move a 10 into Strength until I saw that.

-2 Strength, +2 Int, +1 Wisdom.  That solves the immediate problems with skill points.  For long-term problems, either go with -2 Charisma for +2 more Int or get a Candle(s) of Invocation to wish up an Inherent bonus.  That's actually probably the tamest use of them.  With all the Extra Turnings and such that you're getting, that last turn attempt won't do much, and using your swift action for a quickened spell is a lot better use of a swift action than your smite later on.

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[altpersona]

dl minotaur
lion barb 6 (4)(x) / fighter 2(4)(x) / (some full bab (X) )  / divine champ? (gives a domain list to cast from, i can never remember its proper name) (2) /full bab n caster (preferably that adds extra domains if your dm is kosher) (x)

[X-Codes]

Having a base 14 in strength to capitalize on a crazy good racial bonus is one thing.  Having a base 16 in strength when your other stats need the points more is shooting yourself in the foot.  That fact that you are a War Cleric doesn't change the fact that you are a War Cleric, and Clerics have 2-3 stats that are higher priority than Strength, depending on your build.

Also, while 14 turn attempts is 2 free persistent spells, 15 turn attempts is 3 free quickened spells.  Again, if you really want to go with a Multispell strategy in epic play, go with the DMM: Quicken instead of Persist.  It will actually save you a feat, too.

Further, you can ask your DM to add domains to your deity's list as Dragonlance didn't use all of the domains printed in supplements since it's own publishing.  Glory has two decent Paladin spells on it's list (as well as Gate), and fits perfectly with Kiri-Jolith's fluff.

[dna1]

Hi there.

I am building a minoaur cleric, using the minotaur race from the DragonLance Campaign Setting. It seems like one hell of a +0LA race

is that minotaur? did i miss something... i thought the mino is like a +8la or something?

[E-mail]

Hi there.

I am building a minoaur cleric, using the minotaur race from the DragonLance Campaign Setting. It seems like one hell of a +0LA race

is that minotaur? did i miss something... i thought the mino is like a +8la or something?

[X-Codes]

While Glory domain is useful for the spells, Law domain is more useful for the corresponding Devotion.  If you're going to be fighting a lot of fiends, then Good devotion might be even better, although it's admittedly a niche feat.

[fuinjutsu]

The Cloistered Cleric option seems nice, but it does open up a new problem as I wont be proficient with heavy armor by the virtue of that class, and none of the prestige classes I plan on taking are going to solve that.

Why is that a problem?  At higher levels you'll be wearing light armor, because the mobility penalty makes the extra AC from Heavy so not worth it anyway.

You're a cleric.  If you need heavy armor, you're doing it wrong.

[X-Codes]

The Cloistered Cleric option seems nice, but it does open up a new problem as I wont be proficient with heavy armor by the virtue of that class, and none of the prestige classes I plan on taking are going to solve that.

Why is that a problem?  At higher levels you'll be wearing light armor, because the mobility penalty makes the extra AC from Heavy so not worth it anyway.

You're a cleric.  If you need heavy armor, you're doing it wrong.

Not if he's a level 1 cleric.  At those levels, heavy armor is actually kinda nice.  He's not building a skillmonkey, either, he just needs enough skill points to get his feats and PRCs.

Also note that Cloistered Cleric uses low BAB, and that the build of Cleric 4/Ordained Champ 5/Contemplative 1/Church Inquisitor 10 gets exactly +16 BAB.  Going from Cleric to Cloistered cleric will lose you that last iterative, and while that last attack is admittedly not much, it's generally better than whatever else Cloistered Cleric offers.

[fuinjutsu]

The Cloistered Cleric option seems nice, but it does open up a new problem as I wont be proficient with heavy armor by the virtue of that class, and none of the prestige classes I plan on taking are going to solve that.

Why is that a problem?  At higher levels you'll be wearing light armor, because the mobility penalty makes the extra AC from Heavy so not worth it anyway.

You're a cleric.  If you need heavy armor, you're doing it wrong.

Not if he's a level 1 cleric.  At those levels, heavy armor is actually kinda nice.  He's not building a skillmonkey, either, he just needs enough skill points to get his feats and PRCs.

Also note that Cloistered Cleric uses low BAB, and that the build of Cleric 4/Ordained Champ 5/Contemplative 1/Church Inquisitor 10 gets exactly +16 BAB.  Going from Cleric to Cloistered cleric will lose you that last iterative, and while that last attack is admittedly not much, it's generally better than whatever else Cloistered Cleric offers.

Ordained champ 4 can spontaneously cast a Quickened Divine Power.  Who gives a hoot about BAB at that point?

Being able to enter church inquisitor at a decent level helps a lot.  So does knowledge devotion.

Is the armor going to matter that much?  Really depends on the party composition.

[X-Codes]

Ordained champ 4 can spontaneously cast a Quickened Divine Power.  Who gives a hoot about BAB at that point?

Being able to enter church inquisitor at a decent level helps a lot.  So does knowledge devotion.

Is the armor going to matter that much?  Really depends on the party composition.

That's where it starts coming down to action economy.  There are a myriad of buffs you can cast as a swift action, not just Divine Power.

Bumping Int by 2 also lets you enter Church Inquisitor at a decent level.

Knowledge Devotion only helps if you have the skill points to spare for it.  This character likely will not.

This is a War Cleric.  At early levels, heavy armor will matter a lot.  Instead of AC 12 at level 2, it will be AC 16.  At level 5ish it will most likely be a difference between an AC below 15 and an AC over 20.  Thats a lot for a front-line character.

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Contemplative 2