Author Topic: Small sized grappler?  (Read 4430 times)

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Generic_PC

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Small sized grappler?
« on: September 09, 2010, 10:12:49 PM »
Could I make an effective grappler from level 1 with a small sized race? I was thinking that the Tome of Battle was the best way to do this, with a Setting Sun swordsage, maybe with a level of Marshal for +Cha to the modifier.

I'm building this for an arena, and I have no idea where to start. I recall a couple feats like Confound the Big Folk and such, that SOUND thematic, but I have no idea what they do, and since small races generally have a -str... I have no idea where to start with this.
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Archao

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 10:21:58 PM »

bearsarebrown

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 10:24:20 PM »
simple is: no

even when your large grapple is very subpar.

Generic_PC

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 10:49:46 PM »
Let me re-word that. I don't want a grappler. I want a small sized Setting Sun focused (though I realize Mighty Throw is basically the only useful level 1 maneuver) Swordsage. Trip and whatever is a bonus.

I can make the Swordsage, but I'm sure there are ways to make small size a bonus rather than a penalty, and I'm looking for those.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 10:59:38 PM by Generic_PC »
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Amechra

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 11:11:26 PM »
Kobold with Enlarge Person as Racial spell-like.

What? They're medium and small at the same time!

Combine with a Fusion from a Goliath Psion to give you the ability to be three sizes at once.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Generic_PC

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 11:16:48 PM »
Technically, a Kobold has slight build, so you'd be tiny and small or small and medium at the same time!

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wotmaniac

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 02:03:46 AM »
psychic warrior. 
get expansion. 
if you're only gonna dip psywar, get either practiced manifester -and/or- overchannel (and it's companion).
get to where you can spend at least 7 pp on expansion (to grow 2 size categories).
done.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Smokey_the_bear

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 02:13:52 AM »
Youre better off focusing on the Tripping. Most maneuvers grants a +4 unnamed bonus which means it'll stack with Imp Trip however Imp specifically only gives a bonus to your Str check so you'd be out of luck if you're choosing to use Dex for your trips. Plenty of weapons let you trip but only a few give you bonuses.

wotmaniac

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 02:30:23 AM »
psychic warrior. 
get expansion. 
if you're only gonna dip psywar, get either practiced manifester -and/or- overchannel (and it's companion).
get to where you can spend at least 7 pp on expansion (to grow 2 size categories).
done.
also ...
for special-attacks-other-than-grapple = Exotic Weapon Master + exotic weapon that gives bonus to trip, et.al.
(this is, of course, in addition to the psywar thingy)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 02:32:19 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

gorfnad

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 02:42:03 AM »
Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge may be what you're looking for. Sadly the BG link to it is having issues (cached).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 02:43:40 AM by gorfnad »

Generic_PC

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 03:00:17 AM »
That looks like a great build, if I'm looking for ridiculous sizing issues... Also, easily transferred to a strongheart halfling, losing the diminuitive, which I wasn't planning on using anyway. I'll think about that.

Looking at the set of rules for combat approval, I really need a non-damage focused character. Secondary methods of attack, whether pushing them into spike walls or tripping or whatever (but also winning by either death or knockout) will grant me a larger prize at the end of the round in gold. (Winning grants a level and gold based on the WBL*your crowd approval modifier, which goes from 0 to 150%) Using ToB appears to be frowned upon, like usual, as I've been banned from it. I'll post the set of crowd approval modifiers.
[SPOILER]
Gladiator con?rms critical hit -> Attitude toward gladiator improves
Gladiator wins a fight with only 1 HP remaining -> Attitude toward gladiator improves
Successful feint in combat -> Attitude toward you improves
Successful demoralise opponent -> Attitude toward you improves, attitude toward opponent worsens
Successful tumble through enemy square   -> Attitude toward you improves
Successful Perform (weapon drill) check -> Attitude toward you improves
Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush more than 10' or destroy an opponents weapon -> Attitude toward you improves
Pin an opponent or move them in a grapple -> Attitude toward you improves, attitude toward opponent worsens
Use an arena feature to cause damage to an opponent -> Attitude toward you improves
Gladiator misses three times in succession -> Attitude towards gladiator worsens
Land a hit with two different weapons in the same round -> Attitude toward you improves
Gladiator enhances his abilities with magic* -> Attitude towards gladiator improves
Gladiator uses a ranged spell -> Attitude towards gladiator worsens
Successfully poison an opponent -> Attitude toward you improves
Successfully hamstring an opponent -> Attitude toward you improves
Gladiator kills an opponent outright (less than -10 hps) -> Attitude toward you improves
Gladiator defeats a creature other than opponent -> Attitude toward gladiator improves
Gladiator shifts or rages -> Attitude toward gladiator improves
Gladiator is forced to cower -> Attitude toward gladiator decreases
Gladiator successfully stuns an opponent -> Attitude toward gladiator increases
Melee, combat continues for more than 10 rounds** -> Attitude towards all gladiators improves
Gladiator performs three different crowd pleasing actions in succession -> Attitude toward gladiator improves
[/SPOILER]

Long list? the *s are little sidenotes. Enhancing abilities with magic must be visible (ex Enlarge Person potions, which are rampant) and combat for 10 rounds must be continuous melee combat (presumably with a pile of misses...)

Concealment, disabling spells and ranged spells are frowned upon, by which I mean essentially banned.

So, any newer thoughts that keep my core of a small character? I was thinking about a Spellthief (as I'd be able to steal any of their buffs and apply them to myself) with poison to carry me through the first level of no spell stealing. Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk would also be of use, though my first feat would obviously be Master of Poisons.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 03:41:55 AM by Generic_PC »
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carnivore

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 02:13:42 PM »
here is a Tiny Build that can Grow to Large when needed ... and get great bonuses

[spoiler]heres a fun build:

as you look at the Tiny greenish hued Dragon that has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail, you hear a little voice in your Mind, "Dont ever call me Cute ... that just makes me Angry .. you wouldnt like me when I'm Angry"


1/2 Troll Psuedodragon 9/ Ranger 2/ Rogue 2/ Stoneblessed(Goliath) 3/ Barbarian 3/ Horizonwalker 1

1/2 Troll Template
[spoiler]Half-Troll(a creature that is part Troll, usually due to magical experimentation)(FF p93)
Gains many Troll attributes, such as a pointy nose, long arms, greenish skin, and an insatiable hunger.
Inherited Template that can be added to any Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Outsider.
Becomes a Ranger:
Trap Expert (DS, p 12): Lose tracking. Gain trap finding, and disable device as a class skill.

Voice of the City (CS, web): Lose wild empathy to gain the ability to communicate with people who speak languages you do not know.

Fangshields Ranger Substitution Levels (CV, p 41): nonhumanoid, add Diplomacy
2nd level: Combat Style (Multiattack or Improved Natural Attack (single natural weapon), Weapon Focus (any natural weapon), Weapon Focus (any other natural weapon), or Greater Weapon Focus (single natural weapon))

Rogue:
Simple Variant Rogue:(UA)
The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.
Gain: Bonus feats (as fighter).
Lose: Sneak attack.

Goliath Rogue Substitution Levels (RS, p 152): d8 hitdice, add survival to class skills
2nd level: Mettle of Mountains (+4 bonus to For, Mettle), no evasion

Barbarian:
Goliath Barbarian Substitution Levels (RS, p 150): add knowledge: nature to class list
1st level: Mountain Rage (extra size: changes to Large/ +2 additional strength while raging), replaces normal rage

Bear Totem(UA)
A barbarian dedicated to the bear totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
A 1st-level bear-totem barbarian gains Toughness as a bonus feat.
At 2nd level, a bear-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
A 3rd-level bear-totem barbarian gains Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.
[/spoiler]



Attributes: 32pt buy
30 Str(base 16 +2 Racial +2 lvl +4 Inherent +6 Belt)
34 Dex(base 16 +6 racial +1 lvl +5 Inherent +6 Belt)
30 Con(base 14 +8 racial +2 Stone blessed +6 Belt)
18 Int(base 14 -2 racial +6 Belt)
16 Wis(base 8 +2 racial +6 Belt)
12 Chr(base 8 -2 racial +6 Belt)

when Raging: ... includes Boost from Size changes(Tiny>Small>Medium>Large)

36 Str
34 Dex
34 Con
18 Int
16 Wis
12 Cha


Flaws:
Vulnerable
Murkey Eyed

Progression and Feats:

Dragon HD ..................................... Weapon Finnesse(Racial bonus), Mourning Mutate*(Flaw bonus), Inhuman Reach(Flaw bonus), Deepspawn
Dragon HD
Ranger 1 ........................................ Barbed Stinger
Stoneblessed 1
Stoneblessed 2
Stoneblessed 3 ...............................  open feat? ,Toughness(Bonus)
Barbarian 1 ..................................... Toughness(Bonus)
Rogue 1 .......................................... TWF(Bonus)
Rogue 2 .......................................... Extra Rage, Endurance(Bonus)
Ranger 2 ......................................... Multiattack
Barbarian 2 ..................................... Imp Grapple(Bonus)
Barbarian 3 ..................................... Prehensile Tail, Great Fortitude(Bonus)
HorizonWalker 1

*Mourning Mutate feat:
[spoiler]Mourning Mutate
Type: Aberrant
Source: Dragon #359

You survived the Mourning, but it left its mark upon your body. While one feature is especially noteworthy, you might have any number of purely cosmetic oddities. Unusual skin, hair, and eye Colors are common, as are strange rashes or webs of scars. The form of a warped feature is up to you and the DM, It might be out of proportion, or it niight be truly monstrous in nature.

Benefit: You gain a physical feature that grants you a racial bonus on one type of check or actiQn. The bonus must be chosen from the following list:

Mourning Feature Benefit
Disturbing sores +3 on saving throws vs. poison and disease. (see below)
Hideous features +3 on Intimidate checks
Spongy flesh DR 3/- vs. nonlethal damage
Unnaturally flexible +3 on Escape Artist
Warped ears +3 on listen checks
Warped eyes +3 on Spot checks
Warped limb Limb deals +2 damage with unarmed strikes


Special: This feat is treated as Aberration Blood (Lords of Madness) for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
If you have disturbing sores and successfully save against a disease by 3 or fewer points, you avoid its effects.
You may only take this feat at 1st level.

[/spoiler]

When Ragin ... goes from Tiny to Large....  :lmao
Grapple check when Raging:

+38 + 1d20 (+11 BAB+4 Imp Grapple +4 large +13 Str +2 Prehensile Tail +2 Deepspawn +2 Abberation blood)

can grapple Huge creatures

Attacks when Raging:
Tail Sting 1d8 +13... with 20' reach
Bite 1d6+6 ............ with 15' reach
2x Claw 1d8+6 ...... with 15' reach


Items:
200000gp +6 Belt of Magnificense
137000gp +5 Tome of Dex
110000gp +4 Tome of Str[/spoiler]

the problem with many Small builds ... to Grapple effectively you must get larger .... however i have a Tiny Build that is an Incredible Tripper ..... will try to get it later

 :D

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 05:34:54 PM »
If you can wait until much higher level, Binders with Zagan can grapple as a large creature (but its set at large, so no further increase shenanigans).  I thought it hilarious that you could play a tiny creature and be grappling bugbears.  Also, with Eurynome, you could be attacking with a Large Hammer.  Same deal.  Just funny imagery.  Not really all that effective.

What about using a killer gnome basis of feats for this (the first killer gnome, that is)?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 05:39:02 PM »
Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge may be what you're looking for. Sadly the BG link to it is having issues (cached).
Lycanthromancer was banned at GitP? Wow... He's like one of the least offensive posters I've seen on gaming boards... WTF!

I remember a halfling monk ACF that let them ignore size modifiers to grapple, IIRC. It was called "Size Matters Not", I think, but I forget where it was from...

Edit: Looks like Races of the Wild. It might not work exactly how I remember, but I do remember seeing a grappling build based on a halfling using it...

Edit2: Yeah, it only gives you a +4 to grapple, and you have to take 7 levels of monk to get it. Eww...

Halfling Monk Substitution Levels (RotW):
Quote
Levels have d6 HD.
1st level: Get skirmish ability that goes up to 2d6 dmg/+2 AC. Lose flurry of blows.
2nd level: Weapon finesse instead of normal bonus feat.
7th level: Size matters not: Get +4 bonus to grapple (only if you already have improved grapple) and stunning fist DCs against creatures that are two or more size categories larger. Lose wholeness of body.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 05:42:46 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 06:26:48 PM »
Strongheart Halfling Wolf/Bear Totem Barbarian 2/Swordsage 1
Str 8, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Improved Unarmed Strike [1st], Wolf Beserker [Racial feat], Improved Trip [Barbarian 2], Combat Reflexes [3rd] and Weapon Focus (Stone Dragon).

Trip
-4 Size
+5 Dex
+2 BaB
+4 Improved Trip
+4 Wolf Beserker
+2 Ferocity
+4 Mighty Throw
+4 Step of the Wind
+21 to Trip Attacks (at level 3)

I think I may have missed something in my math but it is still pretty easy to turn a halfling into a luchador.


 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:15:15 PM by dark_samuari »

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 09:05:18 PM »
Hell, and then go Binder!  Add in that insta-rage combo and bind Zagan!  Zagan alone nets another +12!

wotmaniac

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 09:06:10 PM »
Sadly the BG link to it is having issues (cached).
um, just take the ";wap2" off of the url ... like this.   :p

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

JaronK

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 10:16:01 PM »
Consider using Confound the Big Folk and Underfoot Combat, plus some way to take advantage of Flat Footed opponents.   That will work wonders.

JaronK

Generic_PC

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Re: Small sized grappler?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2010, 01:56:16 AM »
I plan to. Spellthief 1+Feint will give me the sneak attack to hopefully damage the first encounter down. A level of Swashbuckler will give me a little more HP and Weapon Finesse, then a second level of Spellthief lets me steal the goddamn Enlarge Person buffs that are always around, and a houseruled use for Sleight of Hand lets me completely ignore feint and just quickdraw daggers for flat-footed attacks.

After that, Fighter 2 gives me Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk for some bonuses just for being small, and some more BAB/HP. Then, a prestige class like Invisible Blade or something to wreck people with feinting sneak attacks.

Through all of this, I'm hoping roach paste actually suceeds so I can just end the combat there, while they're nauseated. Eventually I'll probably move up, but for now, DC14 Injury poisons!
Witty sayings? Nah, not right now. Currently playing Dwarf Fortress and League of Legends. I really recommend League of Legends.