Author Topic: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?  (Read 6283 times)

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Endarire

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What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« on: September 08, 2010, 04:54:05 AM »
A 'darkwood' shirt is atypical, but what would its stats be?  Assume it hasn't been affected by ironwood.
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carnivore

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 07:43:31 AM »
500 gp +4 Armor,Max Dex +4, , ASF 20%, Speed 30 ft., Weight 12.5 lb. .... would be useable by Druids without affecting class abilities

 :D
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 07:12:37 PM by carnivore »

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 06:16:46 PM »
Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood.

To me this seems like the most important line in the description. Unless there's a tradition of wooden chainmail I'm not aware of, a darkwood chain shirt is either impossible or gets no special benefit and has normal stats.

carnivore

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 06:42:01 PM »
what the OP ... posted: A 'darkwood' shirt is atypical ..... he realizes this ... it is probably a theoretical example ... or an example of what you could do with Fabricate+ Minor Creation ... i just showed what its stats would be if allowed in a game

 :D

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 06:44:39 PM »
what the OP ... posted: A 'darkwood' shirt is atypical ..... he realizes this ... it is probably a theoretical example ... or an example of what you could do with Fabricate+ Minor Creation ... i just showed what its stats would be if allowed in a game

 :D

If allowed in a game, its stats would RAW be identical to an ordinary chain shirt. A chain shirt is not normally made of wood and hence gets no special benefit from being made of darkwood. It's pretty clear right there in the darkwood entry you posted.

Bozwevial

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 07:02:03 PM »
what the OP ... posted: A 'darkwood' shirt is atypical ..... he realizes this ... it is probably a theoretical example ... or an example of what you could do with Fabricate+ Minor Creation ... i just showed what its stats would be if allowed in a game

 :D

If allowed in a game, its stats would RAW be identical to an ordinary chain shirt. A chain shirt is not normally made of wood and hence gets no special benefit from being made of darkwood. It's pretty clear right there in the darkwood entry you posted.
...operating under the assumption that a) yes, you can have a wooden chain shirt and b) yes, that means you can make it out of darkwood.

Also, carnivore, I think the armor check penalty is off. Shouldn't it be -1, since the property only applies to shields?

carnivore

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 07:12:10 PM »
looks like you are right .... i misread, and thought it applied to armor as well... will correct

 :D

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 07:55:45 PM »
...operating under the assumption that a) yes, you can have a wooden chain shirt and b) yes, that means you can make it out of darkwood.

This is why I said "if allowed in a game". Obviously, if not allowed in a game, a darkwood mail shirt's stats are "N/A". :)

Bozwevial

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 08:50:08 PM »
...operating under the assumption that a) yes, you can have a wooden chain shirt and b) yes, that means you can make it out of darkwood.

This is why I said "if allowed in a game". Obviously, if not allowed in a game, a darkwood mail shirt's stats are "N/A". :)
And we're assuming that it's both permitted and rules-legal, otherwise the topic wouldn't be here. So why bring it up?

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 09:53:15 PM »
...operating under the assumption that a) yes, you can have a wooden chain shirt and b) yes, that means you can make it out of darkwood.

This is why I said "if allowed in a game". Obviously, if not allowed in a game, a darkwood mail shirt's stats are "N/A". :)
And we're assuming that it's both permitted and rules-legal, otherwise the topic wouldn't be here. So why bring it up?

I don't know! You brought it up just now! I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello routine.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 11:07:32 PM »
Well there are a few ways to get different woods for wooden armor...

There's

Bluewood, which is alchemically hardened normal wood
Ironwood, which is magically hardened normal wood
Bronzewood, which is a naturally hard wood
Darkwood, which is halfweight normal hardness wood
Darkleaf, which is alchemically hardened Darkwood
Duskwood, which is a naturally hard and halfweight wood
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Bozwevial

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 11:29:21 PM »
And we're assuming that it's both permitted and rules-legal, otherwise the topic wouldn't be here. So why bring it up?
I don't know! You brought it up just now! I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello routine.

If allowed in a game, its stats would RAW be identical to an ordinary chain shirt. A chain shirt is not normally made of wood and hence gets no special benefit from being made of darkwood. It's pretty clear right there in the darkwood entry you posted.

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 11:34:41 PM »
And we're assuming that it's both permitted and rules-legal, otherwise the topic wouldn't be here. So why bring it up?
I don't know! You brought it up just now! I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello routine.

If allowed in a game, its stats would RAW be identical to an ordinary chain shirt. A chain shirt is not normally made of wood and hence gets no special benefit from being made of darkwood. It's pretty clear right there in the darkwood entry you posted.


Okay, I think I see where the confusion is.

The thing is, even if you assume you can make a chain shirt out of wood, a chain shirt is not "normally made of wood". The entry specifically says items not normally made of wood either gain no benefit from being made of darkwood or can't be made from darkwood.

Unless you're in a setting where chainmail is not just possible to make of wood, but normally made of wood, in which case the base stats for chainmail are probably different to begin with.

Bozwevial

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 11:46:55 PM »
Right, but I think we were assuming for the purposes of this topic that the darkwood chain shirt was both possible and rules-legal, otherwise there'd be no point. Sorry for the confusion.

Psithief

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 01:24:01 AM »
The confusion arises from posting in the Min/Max forum a topic that should be in a different forum.

Saeomon

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 01:43:41 AM »

FINAL PRODUCT
"Darkwood" Chain shirt 500 gp +4 Armor,Max Dex +4, , ASF 20%, Speed 30 ft., Weight 12.5 lb. .... would be useable by Druids without affecting class abilities

 :D

+1. Identical to a Masterwork Chain Shirt in every way, but 1/2 the weight. This is most in keeping with the RAW and the RAI.

Imagine the difficulty in making something like that. Unless you carved out the entire suit of interlocked links from a single block of wood, or somehow coaxed a tree to GROW like that over a process of years or generations, it'd be next to impossible. Wood isn't malleable like that. A Darkwood Breastplate or a suit of Darkwood Banded or Splint Mail I could see. The latter two would be similar to Medieval Japanese armor.

Benly

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2010, 04:08:45 AM »
Right, but I think we were assuming for the purposes of this topic that the darkwood chain shirt was both possible and rules-legal, otherwise there'd be no point. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm assuming it's possible too. And the result of it would be "no special benefit", because chain shirts are not normally made from wood and darkwood versions of things that are not normally made from wood or are not made entirely from wood receive no special benefit if they are possible.

I'm genuinely not clear on where the confusion is coming from.

carnivore

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 07:21:40 AM »
the value of armor like this ..... it is Wearable by Druids and wont affect thier class abilities, and would make an ideal target for the Ironwood spell .... the way you would make Armor like this:

Use the spell Fabricate!

considering that some Armor can already be made from Wood, making this Armor from a specific Type of Wood is not Unreasonable


 :D

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2010, 08:50:50 AM »
Right, but I think we were assuming for the purposes of this topic that the darkwood chain shirt was both possible and rules-legal, otherwise there'd be no point. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm assuming it's possible too. And the result of it would be "no special benefit", because chain shirts are not normally made from wood and darkwood versions of things that are not normally made from wood or are not made entirely from wood receive no special benefit if they are possible.

I'm genuinely not clear on where the confusion is coming from.
They are replacing the metal portion of the chain shirt with wood.  So if it's possible to make a wooden chain shirt, it's possible to make a darkwood chain shirt, and such a chain shirt would gain the half-weight benefit.

Saeomon

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Re: What are the stats for a Darkwood 'Chain' Shirt?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2010, 03:59:35 PM »
I'm going to try to clear this up and get everyone on the same page.

Here's the text about Darkwood, again, directly from the SRD:
[spoiler]Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.

Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.[/spoiler]

The disagreement centers around how to interpret sentences 2 and 3 of that text, the ones that start with, "Any wooden...," and "Items not...," together.

A reading of sentence 2 states that any wooden or mostly wooden item made out of darkwood is both A) masterwork and B) 1/2 the weight of an identical item made out of normal wood.

A reading of sentence 3 creates a special restriction for items not normally made out of wood or which are normally only partially made out of wood: they either A) cannot be made out of darkwood at all or B) do not get any special benefit if they are made out of darkwood.

Comparing sentence 2 to sentence 3, the former is far less open to interpretation than the latter. Sentence 3 contains many more subjective words.

In the case of this particular disagreement, the focus of the parties to that argument has been on the words "special benefit," as applied to this hypothetical Darkwood Chain Shirt.

Advocates on one side argue that the words "special benefit" include the reduced weight and that. Therefore, this side argues, because a Chain Shirt is not ordinarily made out of wood and because a 50% reduction in the weight of the item would constitute a special benefit, a Chain Shirt made out of darkwood would not weigh one-half of an ordinary Chain Shirt, but rather be the same weight as an ordinary chain shirt.

Advocates on the other side argue that the words "special benefit" and the text regarding the reduced weight are exclusive; that "special benefit" refers to anything OTHER than the weight reduction.

Analysis:
I'm a firm believer that rules interpretation is much like statutory interpretation. One of the canons of statutory interpretation is to give effect to each word or sentence in the statute, to reconcile the seeming conflict as opposed to declaring that one part of the text trumps the other part.

In light of that canon, those advocating for the "special benefit" and the weight reduction to be exclusive properties have the stronger argument. Their interpretation gives effect to the entire text.

There is additional support for this interpretation within the text itself. The text provides a description of the benefit conferred upon a shield made out of darkwood. That shield has its armor check penalty reduced by 2. This is clearly a benefit different than the weight reduction, and one which sets a darkwood shield apart from other, more mundane shields. However, since this benefit is only noted for shields, but not other items, it is unique, making it "special," and therefore more in line with the intent of the text.

Furthermore, if the interpretation of the "special benefit includes the weight reduction" advocates were to be accepted, a clear contradiction would be created. A Darkwood Chain Shirt would be an item made mostly, if not 100% out of darkwood. If the weight reduction were ruled not to apply to that chain shirt, then the clear intent of the text would be thwarted.

Conclusion:
The weight reduction is not a "special benefit" within the meaning of the text. Therefore, a Darkwood Chain Shirt has all of the benefits of an ordinary Masterwork chain shirt, and weighs 1/2 the weight. Unlike the given example of a Darkwood shield, a Darkwood Chain Shirt does not derive any additional benefit, such as reduced armor check penalty, due to its construction from darkwood.