Author Topic: Spellthief (Trickster ACF) Optimization? (Modified from "Weird stat rules...")  (Read 14736 times)

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Mixster

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 01:15:21 PM »
Be a master spellthief/Sublime Chord/Wizard/Ultimate magus.

Laugh when you reach level 12.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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carnivore

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 01:16:34 PM »
from any source Arcane or Divine .... any list?

try this(All from Trapsmith spell list):

arcane sight
clairaudience/clairvoyance,
dispel magic
gaseous form
haste
knock

 :D

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2010, 01:20:13 PM »
from any source Arcane or Divine .... any list?

try this(All from Trapsmith spell list):

arcane sight
clairaudience/clairvoyance,
dispel magic
gaseous form
haste
knock

 :D
LOL!  I don't think that would fly, but that was how he worded it!

Shadowhunter

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2010, 01:23:37 PM »
carnivore, how the hell do you manage to qualify for a 7th level maneuver at level 1?

JWM, peharps try a Dragonfire Adept?
Battlefield control with entangling exhaustion, constant movement to negate attacks and since you'll be CON-SAD you'll have plenty of hit points.
No need for either Agility or Strength.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

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[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2010, 02:28:13 PM »
Be a master spellthief/Sublime Chord/Wizard/Ultimate magus.

Laugh when you reach level 12.
Hey, that's slick...  Unfortunately Spellthief doesn't qualify for SC (no bardic music) but I still like the concept.

Dragonfire Adept isn't a bad idea...  I think I'll stick w/ the Spellthief for now, though, as I've never had a chance to try one out (nor a DFA, but its conceptually very similar to a Warlock, which I have played).

I had a list of class / concepts I still wanted to try in 3.5.  Not sure where it went, but Spellthief, DFA, a "ultra-weirdo" warlock, Shadowcaster, and if a core-only game, I wanted to try a Rogue / Fighter.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 02:33:09 PM by jameswilliamogle »

McPoyo

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 02:30:51 PM »
Be a master spellthief/Sublime Chord/Wizard/Ultimate magus.

Laugh when you reach level 12.
Hey, that's slick...  Unfortunately Spellthief doesn't qualify for SC (no bardic music) but I still like the concept.
Bardic Spellthief variant does, iirc.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2010, 02:33:42 PM »
Bardic Spellthief variant does, iirc.
It gets Bardic Music?  I didn't think that I had read that.

McPoyo

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2010, 02:35:23 PM »
Bardic Spellthief variant does, iirc.
It gets Bardic Music?  I didn't think that I had read that.
Sorry, misread bardic music as arcane spellcasting for some reason. It'd go something like Bardic Spellthief/Bard/SC/Wiz/UM, or one of the other ways to get bardic music (Harmony variant paladin or whatever)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

fuinjutsu

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2010, 02:38:54 PM »
Bardic Spellthief variant does, iirc.
It gets Bardic Music?  I didn't think that I had read that.
Sorry, misread bardic music as arcane spellcasting for some reason. It'd go something like Bardic Spellthief/Bard/SC/Wiz/UM, or one of the other ways to get bardic music (Harmony variant paladin or whatever)

Harmonious Knight is awesome.  Where can i find bardic spellthief?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2010, 02:40:39 PM »
Dragon 353 has the Trickster ACF.  I wrote about it over on 339 a blue moon ago...
"You lose:
all but 1d6 sneak attack (you get d6 at L1 and thats it)
2 skill points per level (down to 4+Int)
Trapfinding
Apraise, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Open Lock, Search, Swim, Tumble

You gain:
Full CL = Spellthief level
Spellcasting advancement as a Bard
Bard or Spellthief spells (ie, all Bard, and Abjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Transmutation Sorc/Wiz spells)."

Epimetheus

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2010, 03:01:08 PM »
Seriously, Shadow Blink (the swift teleport through shadows) is a 7th lvl maneuver. If Martial Study could get you anything..., I'd go straight for those nice 9th lvl ones. Like the one that gives you two full attacks or Inferno blast, to deal 100 damage in 60' radius burst. At lvl 1. Recoverable with a swift action. Unfortunately, that Warblade build wouldn't really work.

What about Virtuoso? That also gets you Bardic Music. Or Prestige Bard. Why not just be a bard?

Not a bad ACF, it seems. I'd take it. You only need to get Bardic Music, somehow.

B. Spellthief 7 / Prestige Bard 1 (prereqs are easy, but require certain choices of spells AND UA must be allowed) OR Virtuoso 1 (no Inspire courage :( or bardic knowledge ) / Anything 2 / Sublime Chord 2

Naturally, you could do crazy things with that Anything 2, such as Wizard or divine caster, and then use Mystic Theurge or Ultimate Magus to advance your casting after Sublime Chord. You'll be somewhat short on 3rd lvl spells if you don't advance B. Spellthief a bit more though, so Wizard + Ultimate Magus isn't a terrible choice, if you have any INT.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2010, 03:13:35 PM »
I know there's ways to force Sublime Chord to fit, but it isn't elegant, and I won't do it.  Also, I want at least 9 levels of Spellthief so that I can actually store 9th level stolen spells.  And I doubt the game will last beyond 10 levels anyways; seems to be about the lifetime of most games I've played in.  shrug

If I find myself around L6 likely to last until the mid-teens, I'll beg to reformat my skills in some manner so that I can get into Virtuoso and do just that.  Something like:

Whispergnome Spellthief 9 / Divine Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8.   Its very, very clunky, though.

So, let me clarify:  I'm looking for advice on these first 6-9 levels.  I know its all about spellcasting after that, and its easy to make it happen.  There's virtually no really good advice for Spellthieves at the low-end on the boards; just some random threads here and there.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 03:16:16 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Epimetheus

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2010, 03:40:59 PM »
I know there's ways to force Sublime Chord to fit, but it isn't elegant, and I won't do it.  Also, I want at least 9 levels of Spellthief so that I can actually store 9th level stolen spells.  And I doubt the game will last beyond 10 levels anyways; seems to be about the lifetime of most games I've played in.  shrug

If I find myself around L6 likely to last until the mid-teens, I'll beg to reformat my skills in some manner so that I can get into Virtuoso and do just that.  Something like:

Whispergnome Spellthief 9 / Divine Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8.   Its very, very clunky, though.

So, let me clarify:  I'm looking for advice on these first 6-9 levels.  I know its all about spellcasting after that, and its easy to make it happen.  There's virtually no really good advice for Spellthieves at the low-end on the boards; just some random threads here and there.

You won't be able to steal 9th lvl spells. You'd be able to steal up to 9 spell levels, but a max of 4th lvl spells.

As Complete Adventurer (pg 16) says:
Quote
As a spellthief gains levels, he can choose to steal
higher-level spells. At 4th level, he can steal spells of up
to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th,
the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to
a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level).

So stop at an even Spellthief level?
Good skills for what you want could be Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Bluff, and Know (local)
Good spells?
Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Message, Detect Magic, Read Magic, etc.
I don't know if you can get Nerveskitter (lvl 1 SC). Initiative is good. Maybe?
Shield (lvl 1 PH): Only if you need it.
Grease (lvl 1 PH): Because it's annoying in battle
Improvisation (lvl 1 SC): Bonuses to skills, and probably nice for RP too.
Alter Self (lvl 2 PH): Good for RP and actually can get you some nice movement modes or Nat Armor.
Glitterdust (lvl 2 PH): Reveal those invisible foes!

Pick the best for your free Spell-like Abilities, of course.

I dunno about feats though. None of them really seem to stand out since you won't get Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, or real Sneak Attack.

Master Spellthief the feat would work if you somehow get another arcane casting class. It'd make the base lvl classes stack their caster levels and also increase the max spell lvl you can steal. It also gives you no arcane spell failure for light armor (for the other casting class)

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2010, 03:59:15 PM »
You won't be able to steal 9th lvl spells. You'd be able to steal up to 9 spell levels, but a max of 4th lvl spells.
All Spellthief MC builds have Master Spellthief.  All of them.  Always. :D

Quote
Light, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Message, Detect Magic, Read Magic, etc.
I don't know if you can get Nerveskitter (lvl 1 SC). Initiative is good. Maybe?
Shield (lvl 1 PH): Only if you need it.
Grease (lvl 1 PH): Because it's annoying in battle
Improvisation (lvl 1 SC): Bonuses to skills, and probably nice for RP too.
Alter Self (lvl 2 PH): Good for RP and actually can get you some nice movement modes or Nat Armor.
Glitterdust (lvl 2 PH): Reveal those invisible foes!

Pick the best for your free Spell-like Abilities, of course.

I dunno about feats though. None of them really seem to stand out since you won't get Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, or real Sneak Attack.
Nerveskitter as an SLA isn't bad...  IDK about Grease.  I think that I have to get the "Sneak Attack anything" spells w/ my SLA's, though, as I don't want complications from the get-go.  ("Oh, did I forget to mention that it was all undead and plant creatures in this game?  So sorry...")

I'm not playing a Bard.  Not that I'm opposed in general, but in this MAD house rule I won't be able to do jack-squat except sing and buff.  Boring, even if it is effective.  Also, Words of Creation = fromage (I don't know that about this game, but I am assuming).  (Now that I think about it...  Dragon Shaman for Area buffs???  With the party, its effectively going to have seven characters due to the Druids...)

McPoyo

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2010, 04:00:07 PM »
Powerword: Pain

>.>
<.<
>.>
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2010, 04:10:53 PM »
If it's a SLA, you ignore material components.

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2010, 04:32:44 PM »
Identify will be one of the 6.  Gravestrike, Golemstrike (? do many constructs have SLAs or energy resistances ?), Vinestrike (?not sure; its so rare), Identify,

And, if I can get away with it...  Holy Weapon, Unholy Weapon, suggestions from Carnivore...


JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2010, 05:25:53 PM »
too bad there is no "Bardic" version of  Anima Mage,  you could spam summon monster and buff the entire party and summon that hawk thing to set off traps/scout/whatever


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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Weird stat rules, but party needs a tank. What to do?
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2010, 05:33:35 PM »
If there are two druids in the party, than you can ignore any need for 'tanking'.  They've got it covered.
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jameswilliamogle

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Yeah...  It serves me right for listening to what they thought they needed instead of detaching myself and analyzing it.  Of course, I didn't know exactly what they had until later...  BTW, I'm pretty sure the Druid players decided to do that b/c of their rolls.  I apparently have the best in the group.

The only thing the party is lacking is a face, really, and the Spellthief Trickster ACF can pull that off, I think.  Its counter-intuitive to play a whispergnome party face, but I think it'll be OK.

So any tips on feats?  Weapon Finesse doesn't exist, btw, w/ these weird stat rules.  Here's kind of some that I thought would be nice:

TWF - at this low level, sneak attack even at +d6 is still decent, and at higher levels stealing an extra thing would be fun
Godsblood Spelltheft - Its utility is apparent, but I'd only get to pick one domain from a limited (mostly evil deity) list.  Should I wait for this?
Racial SLA BOOST BOOST - I forgot the name for it, but its the one that makes racial SLAs go to 3 / day.  Only Faerunian games get it, so the DM may say nay.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:01:10 PM by jameswilliamogle »