CO help needed choosing/optimizing a character concept...

[Talbot]

The sitch: Playing in a game with a few friends and mostly good DM as a high-Cha Bardsader with crappy Str and Con (built him deliberately to be Cha/Int-centric and work mostly as a party face/buffer). DM doesn't really seem to use Cha for anything, my diplomacies fall on dead ears, I don't really have much opportunity to bluff, despite a 22 CHA all NPCs instinctively dislike the character etc. Basically, I'm not enjoying playing the character because the way the campaign works, he isn't really able to do what I wanted from him. I don't want to quit the campaign (because I do like playing with my friends, and I know from past experience I can enjoy a game with this DM), but I also don't want to play this character any further.

So I've come up with a few character concepts for replacements. I like to start with kind of a basic sketch of who I want the character to be and a class or two I want to use, but not much else, and I'm mediocre at best as far as crunch goes. Below are four loose character concepts. What I'm looking for from you wonderful people is A) build tweaks/ideas/suggestions/modifications to make the characters more fun/playable/able to do what I want them to do and B) input as to which of the four seems like a better concept and/or build.

Important considerations: DM is difficult about multiclassing, so keeping builds to 2 (3 at the most) classes is ideal. Campaign seems pretty combat heavy, but not terribly optimized. Up to 2 Flaws allowed, but no Psionics.

Character #1: Madigan (Gray Elf)
A jaded adventurer. In his younger days, he was of the Errol Flynn mold, but a long life of disappointment and war has left him without much of a moral compass and little faith in the world around him. He's dabbled in mercenary work, but mostly just wanders the world looking for a quest/campaign/adventure that can re-ignite his enthusiasm. I want to play him as a grizzled, slightly amoral seen it all, done it all type.
Alignment: True Neutral
Classes: Thinking Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 17. Amenable to subbing out some of those Warblade levels, though.
Feats: Want to focus on Int a bit, so probably Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Educated, and Knowledge Devotion, at least. I'd like to squeeze in the TWF tree if I can (always wanted to see if Knowledge Devotion made it worthwhile), but not married to it. Not sure beyond that.
Other: Definitely uses a finessable weapon.

Character 2: Bub (Water Orc)
A former pirate, Bub got sick of taking orders, and took to the land to make a name for himself. Knowing nothing of life on the land, he still largely talks, thinks, and behaves like a pirate; albeit not a malicious one. In a throwback to his pirate days, Bub fights by throwing cannon balls at people.
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Classes: Not sure what to start with (Probably Scout or Fighter?), but finishing up with some combo of Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade/Hulking Hurler. Not sure quite how to build a thrower, though, as I've never tried before.
Feats: *shrugs*
Other: I'd like his main three stats to be some combo of Str/Int/Dex/Con. Don't really care which, but he should definitely have cruddy Cha and Wis for the way I want to play him.

Character 3: (Human?)
Lusufu
Raised by a tribe of Tiger worshipping Barbarians, Lusufu grew up as hunter doing his level best to emulate the noble cats his tribe worshipped. He showed great promise and a prophecy began to circulate that he would become a great champion, leading their tribe to never before imagined heights. And indeed, he might have, but when sent to town one day in his early adulthood, Lusufu fell in love with the virtues (or perhaps vices) of the civilized world and set himself up as a bounty hunter instead to feed his hedonistic habits.
Alignment: True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral
Class: Scout or Ranger X/Lion Totem Barbarian X/Warblade or Swordsage X/Bloodclaw Master 5
Feats: I'd like him to have the TWF tree, but otherwise I don't much care.
Other: Again, I'd like him to have low Wis for how I plan to play him. I dunno quite how the ratios will workout, but I'd like to cram as much Tiger Claw/Skirmish/Favored Enemy into him as I can for Pouncy goodness. May have to let one of those three go, though, in favor of making the other two actually useful. Current leaning is Scout 2/ Ranger 3/Lion Totem Barb 1/Warblade 9/Bloodclaw Master 5 with Swift Hunter, but there's probably a better way, and the multiclass-hating DM is likely to torpedo it.

Character 4: (?)
Death Jr.
A dangerously delusional youth who believes himself to be the son of the Grim Reaper, or at least believes himself to be a Grim Reaper in training. Nobody's quite sure where Death Jr. came from, but he's been working as an unnervingly upbeat assassin, or as he calls it "practicing".
Alignment: Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral
Class: Rogue or Ninja 5/Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 10
Feats: Dunno
Other: Uses a Scythe. Love it if he could get Hide in Plain Sight. Not married to any of the classes, but I definitely want him to have something Sneak-Attacky/Sudden Strikey to go with the whole "assassin" thing. It'd be cool if he got some thematically appropriate spellcasting (stuff like teleport, invisibility, hold person, etc) while still having high base attack, but I can live with 3/4 BAB or no spellcasting.

[Havok4]

For the first option is there a reason you are not taking eternal blade, that seems like the ideal Prc for such a character. There would be tons of synergy with how you plan to run that character.

For the cannonball thrower the orc shot put is the weapon you are looking for, it also has some nice numbers working for it, it can be found in sword and fist but is updated and still valid, 2d6 damage with a 19-20x2 crit range is nice. Bloodstorm blade would work well and allow you to nicely enchant your cannonball. And you can get bonus damage with power attack and apply your strength bonus to the attack due to the way the blood storm blade abilities work.

The fourth idea seems like it might be ideal for a Swordsage/Cleric/ Ruby knight vindicator.

[TheEndIsNear]

The first build might be better as Sawshbuckler 3 Monk 2 Warblade 15. Add Kungfu Genious for int to AC.

2 would be fun if you could go large and take levels in warhulk.

[fuinjutsu]

Character #1: Madigan (Gray Elf)
A jaded adventurer. In his younger days, he was of the Errol Flynn mold, but a long life of disappointment and war has left him without much of a moral compass and little faith in the world around him. He's dabbled in mercenary work, but mostly just wanders the world looking for a quest/campaign/adventure that can re-ignite his enthusiasm. I want to play him as a grizzled, slightly amoral seen it all, done it all type.
Alignment: True Neutral
Classes: Thinking Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 17. Amenable to subbing out some of those Warblade levels, though.
Feats: Want to focus on Int a bit, so probably Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Educated, and Knowledge Devotion, at least. I'd like to squeeze in the TWF tree if I can (always wanted to see if Knowledge Devotion made it worthwhile), but not married to it. Not sure beyond that.
Other: Definitely uses a finessable weapon.

Factotum > Swashbuckler.  Get a Feycraft light weapon and you don't need a WF feat.

Character 2: Bub (Water Orc)
A former pirate, Bub got sick of taking orders, and took to the land to make a name for himself. Knowing nothing of life on the land, he still largely talks, thinks, and behaves like a pirate; albeit not a malicious one. In a throwback to his pirate days, Bub fights by throwing cannon balls at people.
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Classes: Not sure what to start with (Probably Scout or Fighter?), but finishing up with some combo of Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade/Hulking Hurler. Not sure quite how to build a thrower, though, as I've never tried before.
Feats: *shrugs*
Other: I'd like his main three stats to be some combo of Str/Int/Dex/Con. Don't really care which, but he should definitely have cruddy Cha and Wis for the way I want to play him.

Check out the 3.0 A&EG for the Orcish Shotput.  Ask your DM i you can use that.  It's pretty much a cannonball.

Character 3: (Human?)
Lusufu
Raised by a tribe of Tiger worshipping Barbarians, Lusufu grew up as hunter doing his level best to emulate the noble cats his tribe worshipped. He showed great promise and a prophecy began to circulate that he would become a great champion, leading their tribe to never before imagined heights. And indeed, he might have, but when sent to town one day in his early adulthood, Lusufu fell in love with the virtues (or perhaps vices) of the civilized world and set himself up as a bounty hunter instead to feed his hedonistic habits.
Alignment: True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral
Class: Scout or Ranger X/Lion Totem Barbarian X/Warblade or Swordsage X/Bloodclaw Master 5
Feats: I'd like him to have the TWF tree, but otherwise I don't much care.
Other: Again, I'd like him to have low Wis for how I plan to play him. I dunno quite how the ratios will workout, but I'd like to cram as much Tiger Claw/Skirmish/Favored Enemy into him as I can for Pouncy goodness. May have to let one of those three go, though, in favor of making the other two actually useful. Current leaning is Scout 2/ Ranger 3/Lion Totem Barb 1/Warblade 9/Bloodclaw Master 5 with Swift Hunter, but there's probably a better way, and the multiclass-hating DM is likely to torpedo it.

There is alwasy the Sublime Way Ranger, if you DM allows fan content.

Character 4: (?)
Death Jr.
A dangerously delusional youth who believes himself to be the son of the Grim Reaper, or at least believes himself to be a Grim Reaper in training. Nobody's quite sure where Death Jr. came from, but he's been working as an unnervingly upbeat assassin, or as he calls it "practicing".
Alignment: Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral
Class: Rogue or Ninja 5/Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 10
Feats: Dunno
Other: Uses a Scythe. Love it if he could get Hide in Plain Sight. Not married to any of the classes, but I definitely want him to have something Sneak-Attacky/Sudden Strikey to go with the whole "assassin" thing. It'd be cool if he got some thematically appropriate spellcasting (stuff like teleport, invisibility, hold person, etc) while still having high base attack, but I can live with 3/4 BAB or no spellcasting.

Shadowsun ninja is good-aligned only.  If you want an evil shadow themed build, Go for Teflemmar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder for shadowpounce.

If you want shadowsun ninja, using a feat to bind Shadow mantle at 12th is a great way to do a whole "I drag you into the darkness, and beat you up on my turf" theme.

Either way, a two level dip into Totemist will pay off in spades.

[Talbot]

Hmmm... I wonder if you could use Swordsage to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord? Shadow Jaunt is pretty close to what they want you to have, and thematically appropriate...

Allowing for a second that a DM would allow that, I'm considering the following:

Human 0- Desert Wind Dodge, Kung Fu Genius (human), mobility (flaw 1), educated (flaw 2)
Unarmed Swordsage 1- Weapon Focus: whatever (Scythe isn't a discipline weapon), Improved Unarmed Strike (free)
Swordsage 2-
Swordsage 3- Spring Attack
Swordsage 4-
Swordsage 5-
Swordsage 6- Blind Fight
Shadowlord 1-
Shadowlord 2-
Shadowlord 3- Knowledge Devotion
Shadowlord 4-
Shadowlord 5-
Shadowlord 6- Adaptive Style
Swordsage 7-
Swordsage 8-
Swordsage 9- Shape Soulmeld (Shadow)
Master of Nine 1-
Master of Nine 2-
Master of Nine 3- Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)
Master of Nine 4-
Master of Nine 5-

Decent build, ends up with two level nine maneuvers plus evasion and all the Teflammar goodies... but I'd like to get the soulmeld stuff earlier (totemist dip?) and it's awfully feat-intensive. I want educated and Knowledge Devotion because A) the base attack's gonna suck and B) it makes sense for someone who thinks he's death to know a lot about how to kill specific creature types...

Any ideas for tweaking/improving that build? I'd love to shove some Assassin and/or Totemist levels in there, but I'm not sure where. And more advice for the other three options?

[AngellusMortus]

If you wanted to make Death Jr. an actual Death Attack build, you could always be a Black Flame Zealot/Strifeleader. Cleric 4/Rogue 1/Black Flame Zealot 5/Strifeleader 10 with an Assassin's Dagger and Ability Focus, assuming an 19 INT to start (taking a 17 and picking a +2 Int race) with a +5 tome and +6 headband gives you a Death Attack DC of 10 + 15 (Class Levels) + 4 (Strifeleaders Improved Death Attack + 2 (dagger) + 2 (Ability Focus) + 10 (INT) = 43 Fortitude Save, not even fully optimized. Plus, you would get a decent amount of Sneak Attack to work with, and Black Flame Zealots get a once a day Dimension Door, so it at least partially fits your teleportation idea. Throw on a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to get the Hide in Plain Sight. (I think thats what it's called...)

EDIT: Oh, and you get some Cleric spells as requested, so that would help out. I've seen some *slightly* shenanigans-y builds that incorporate Ur-Priest for great casting, reasonable BAB and SA and retain the massive Death Attack DC.

[AngellusMortus]

Well, I couldn't find the Ur-Priest build I was referencing, so I figured I would just go ahead and make it.

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 2/Black Flame Zealot 3/Strifeleader 10

+14 BAB, 6d6 Sneak Attack, 41 Death Attack DC using suggestions from above, and 9th level spells. Certainly nothing to scoff at. To get around the requirement of worshipping a god of death and fire for Black Flame Zealot, while simultaneously not having a god for Ur-Priest...convince your DM you worship yourself, and that because you think you're the Grim Reapers son, you believe you're a deity of Death and Destruction (even though you really aren't and therefore qualify for Ur-Priest.) Not sure how to get around the Cyric requirement for Strifeleader, unless your DM waives it by virtue of creativity.  

[fuinjutsu]

Hmmm... I wonder if you could use Swordsage to qualify for Teflammar Shadowlord? Shadow Jaunt is pretty close to what they want you to have, and thematically appropriate...

Allowing for a second that a DM would allow that, I'm considering the following:

Human 0- Desert Wind Dodge, Kung Fu Genius (human), mobility (flaw 1), educated (flaw 2)
Unarmed Swordsage 1- Weapon Focus: whatever (Scythe isn't a discipline weapon), Improved Unarmed Strike (free)
Swordsage 2-
Swordsage 3- Spring Attack
Swordsage 4-
Swordsage 5-
Swordsage 6- Blind Fight
Shadowlord 1-
Shadowlord 2-
Shadowlord 3- Knowledge Devotion
Shadowlord 4-
Shadowlord 5-
Shadowlord 6- Adaptive Style
Swordsage 7-
Swordsage 8-
Swordsage 9- Shape Soulmeld (Shadow)
Master of Nine 1-
Master of Nine 2-
Master of Nine 3- Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)
Master of Nine 4-
Master of Nine 5-

Decent build, ends up with two level nine maneuvers plus evasion and all the Teflammar goodies... but I'd like to get the soulmeld stuff earlier (totemist dip?) and it's awfully feat-intensive. I want educated and Knowledge Devotion because A) the base attack's gonna suck and B) it makes sense for someone who thinks he's death to know a lot about how to kill specific creature types...

Any ideas for tweaking/improving that build? I'd love to shove some Assassin and/or Totemist levels in there, but I'm not sure where. And more advice for the other three options?

IIRC teflammar shadowlord requires ability to use Dimension Door, and 2d6 sneak attack.  You can't get that at swordsage 6 without spending a feat on Martial Stance

Desert Elf

level/BAB/initiator level - class
1/0/1 - Swordsage1 [Stance: Step of the Wind] (Adaptive Style, Desert Wind Dodge, Kung Fu Genius) - swap out AS for educated if you need it for some reason
2/0/1 - Totemist1
3/1/2 - Totemist2 {bind Blink Shirt to totem} (Expanded Soulmeld Capacity)
4/2/3 - Swordsage2 [Stance: Blood in the Water]
5/3/4 - Swordsage3
6/4/4 - Fighter1 [Bonus Feat: Spring Attack] (Blindfight) {get mobility from armor enhancement}
7/5/5 - Fighter2 [Bonus Feat:Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)]
8/5/5 - Shadowlord1
9/6/6 - Shadowlord2  (Elusive Target)
10/7/6 - Shadowlord3
11/8/7 - Shadowlord4 {gain shadowpounce}
12/9/8 - Swordsage4 (Improved unarmed strike)
13/9/9 - Master of the Nine1
14/10/10 - Master of the Nine 2
15/11/11 - Eternal Blade1 (Open Lesser Chakra: Shoulders) {bind Shadow Mantle to shoulders}
16/12/12 - Eternal Blade2
17/13/13 - Eternal Blade3
18/14/14 - Eternal Blade4 (open feat)
19/15/15 - Master of the Nine3
20/16/16 - Master of the Nine4

This gets you enough IL to pick up shadowblink at the very end of the build.  The strategy is simple.  do something as a standard action (including shadowpounce with shadowjaunt), shadow pounce as a move action.  fun times.

Also, if you ever need that extra oomph, you can swift action shadowpounce at the beginning of your turn when you pick up shadowblink at level 20.

[Shadowhunter]

Telflammar Shadowlord require 10 ranks in certain skills, so no entry before level 7.
Also, Spring Attack requires BAB +4.

5 levels of Swordsage gives Shadow Jaunt and Assassin's Stance, all that is necessary.

A simple build would be:
Swordsage 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swordsage +1/Whatever 8.
Use the re-train at SS level 8 (CL 12) to pick up Shadow Stride.

Human
1 Dodge, Blind-Fight
3 Mobility
6 Spring Attack
9 Adaptive Style
12 Extra Readied Maneuver
15 Craven
18 OPEN

Given enough SS levels, you can eventually pick up Shadow Blink.
Now you can do 3 full attacks in one turn. 1st round.
Given even more enough SS levels, you can eventually then pick up Time Stand Still.
Now you can double your full attack routine. 2nd round. Don't forget to use a Boost.

3rd round would be a good time to refresh, or perhaps you want to do something else.

[Talbot]

But Swordsage does qualify for it? I wasn't sure...

Also, why no love for levels 5 and 6 of Teflammar Shadowlord? Shadow Discorporation seems pretty nifty.

[Shadowhunter]

By strict RAW, Shadow Jaunt will not qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord.
But it's so close I am of the opinion it should be allowed to qualify.

Regardless, 2 levels of Totemist will qualify from a RAW point of view, if it comes to that.
There's also the template option, of course.

I am overall not impressed by Death Attack, hence no love for TS 6.
If you like Death Attack though, perhaps Rogue 3/Totemist 2/Assassin 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 6 is more up your alley.

And the only reason I forgot about Shadow Discorporation is that I was thinking of even numbers, a common thing to keep in mind with Initiators.
It is a nice thing to have.

[fuinjutsu]

Shadowhunter, you need dimension Door to enter teflemmar shadowlord, but shadowpounce works with any [teleportation] effect.

Also, I don't remember swordsage getting a stance at level 5.

[dna1]

Well, I couldn't find the Ur-Priest build I was referencing, so I figured I would just go ahead and make it.

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 2/Black Flame Zealot 3/Strifeleader 10

+14 BAB, 6d6 Sneak Attack, 41 Death Attack DC using suggestions from above, and 9th level spells. Certainly nothing to scoff at. To get around the requirement of worshipping a god of death and fire for Black Flame Zealot, while simultaneously not having a god for Ur-Priest...convince your DM you worship yourself, and that because you think you're the Grim Reapers son, you believe you're a deity of Death and Destruction (even though you really aren't and therefore qualify for Ur-Priest.) Not sure how to get around the Cyric requirement for Strifeleader, unless your DM waives it by virtue of creativity.  

cool idea

+1 for this one

[Shadowhunter]

Shadowhunter, you need dimension Door to enter teflemmar shadowlord, but shadowpounce works with any [teleportation] effect.

Also, I don't remember swordsage getting a stance at level 5.

Indeed, what I was referring to was that Shadow Jaunt doesn't qualify you to enter, but you can still use it. I was a bit unclear.

Swordsages gain a new stance at levels 2,5,9,14 and 20.


As for Lusufu, I have a build you might want to take some inspiration from. Do note, however, that this one is made BEFORE I found out that Weretouched Master became nerfed in the Errata.

[spoiler]Razorclaw Shifter Ranger 3/Warblade 1/Warshaper 2/[Tiger] Weretouched Master 5/Bloodclaw Master 3/Warblade +6
------------------------
Abilites: 32pts buy.

Strength:16+4 (morphic body)+12 (shifting)+5 (tome)+5 (levels)+6 (item)
Dexterity:16+2 (racial)+4 (shifting)
Constitution:12+4 (morphic body)+6 (shifting)
Intelligence:12-2 (racial)
Wisdom:10
Charisma:10-2 (racial)

So, with items and while shifting:

Strength:48
Dexterity:22
Constitution:22
Intelligence:10
Wisdom:10
Charisma:8
------------------------
BAB:17
------------------------
Base Saves:18/13/6
------------------------
Feats:
1: Healing Factor, Track
2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Endurance, Steadfast Determination
6: Shifter Instincts
8: Shifter Defense
9: Improved Critical (kukri)
10: Extra Shifter Trait - Longstrider
12: Longstider Elite
15: Shifter Agility
18: Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior

------------------------
Maneuvers Known:
(lvl 4) Blood In the Water
   Sudden Leap
   Claw at the Moon*
   Wall of Blades
(lvl 12) Iron Heart Surge
(lvl 14) Dancing Mongoose
(lvl 15) Iron Heart Focus
(lvl 16) Iron Heart Endurance
(lvl 17) Absolute Steel Stance
(lvl 18) Swooping Dragon Strike
(lvl 20) Raging Mongoose

*17 retrain Claw at the Moon into Wolf Climbs the Mountain
------------------------
Maneuvers Readied: 5
------------------------
Typical Maneuvers Readied:

Attack-spam:
Dancing Mongoose
Raging Mongoose
Wall of Blades
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart Focus

---
Wolf Climbs the Mountain
--

Jump-based Awesomness:
Sudden Leap
Swooping Dragon Strike
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart Focus

------------------------
Shifting:

Shifts per day: 5

Duration: 18 rounds
------------------------

Items:
+5 book of strenght
+6 Str item

+1 Adamantine Warning Bodyfeeder Kukri (+5)
+1 Alchemical Silver Eager Enervating Parrying Kukri (+6)

damage: d4+20

Normal attack, all hits:
112 damage

Normal attack, highest only hits, Combat rythm:
75 damage

Dancing, all hits:
over two turns.
270

Combat rythm from dancing extras
275

raging for boost, dancing for damage
472

dancing for boost,raging for damage
517[/spoiler]

Weretouched Master 3 gains pounce as long as you select Tiger, so no real need for Lion Totem barbarian dip. Also relies more on Shifts than Rages, which ends up being more powerful. It also has the advantage of being easier to get by certain types of DMs as far as Lion =/= Tiger regarding Totems, fluff and mechanics mixups.

Though this is less a Tiger worshiper and more a literal Tiger in and of itself.

[AngellusMortus]

Well, I couldn't find the Ur-Priest build I was referencing, so I figured I would just go ahead and make it.

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 2/Black Flame Zealot 3/Strifeleader 10

+14 BAB, 6d6 Sneak Attack, 41 Death Attack DC using suggestions from above, and 9th level spells. Certainly nothing to scoff at. To get around the requirement of worshipping a god of death and fire for Black Flame Zealot, while simultaneously not having a god for Ur-Priest...convince your DM you worship yourself, and that because you think you're the Grim Reapers son, you believe you're a deity of Death and Destruction (even though you really aren't and therefore qualify for Ur-Priest.) Not sure how to get around the Cyric requirement for Strifeleader, unless your DM waives it by virtue of creativity.  

cool idea

+1 for this one

Thank you very much, good sir.