No Hit, No Save, No SR effects

[Saeomon]

A little love for the Warlocks out there:

Chilling Tentacles [CArc p. 132]: Greater invocation, equal to 5th level spell, functions like Black Tentacles (which allows no SR), but also causes 2d6 cold damages to all creatures in its area, a 20' radius spread

I though all invocations were SLA's with SR?

black tentacles spell, except that each creature within the area of the invocation takes 2d6 points of cold damage each round."

The Black Tentacles spell description states that it does not allow a save and does not allow for spell resistance.

As written, this creates a complete textual contradiction. Does the statement in the class description control or does the statement in the invocation description control? Both descriptions are definite statements. The Chilling Tentacles text does not specifically state that SR does not apply; however, the same text states that it functions identically to Black Tentacles, except for the additional cold damage.

If the statement in the class description controls then the invocation DOES NOT function identically to Black tentacles.

If the statement in the invocation controls then the text of the class description is rendered meaningless in this instance.

Therefore, this requires a DM's ruling.

In my opinion, though, it doesn't even come close to throwing off class balance to allow the Warlock a no save/no SR AoE invocation of this type. 2d6 no save/no SR damage gained at 11th level, at the very earliest, isn't overpowering. If I was the DM, I'd let the invocation text trump the statement in the class description. YMMV.

As an aside, interpreting WotC handbooks is a lot like interpreting cases and statutes. Sometimes it's even harder.

[MalcolmSprye]

The spell's description DOES explicitly say otherwise.  It say it functions exactly like black tentacles, but with added damage.  So, the spells actual description is the entire spell description of black tentacles(including the not allowing SR)... with damage tacked on.

There's no contradiction.  The class says to obey the spell text, the spell text refers you to a specific block of text for a nearly identical spell.  You obey that block of text.

[Saeomon]

The spell's description DOES explicitly say otherwise.  It say it functions exactly like black tentacles, but with added damage.  So, the spells actual description is the entire spell description of black tentacles(including the not allowing SR)... with damage tacked on.

There's no contradiction.  The class says to obey the spell text, the spell text refers you to a specific block of text for a nearly identical spell.  You obey that block of text.

I agree.

However, if I were an advocate for the other side, I'd argue that you have to look solely at the text of the invocation's description, and that because the invocation's descriptive text does not specifically state, in and of itself, that SR does not apply, SR must apply. I'd also argue that the words "functions identically" in the invocation's description are there merely to provide the reader with a mental picture of what the invocation is intended to accomplish.

Would that be a winning argument? Not if I were the DM, but I think it is a reasonable argument. I just believe the argument that the invocation doesn't allow for SR is more persuasive. Another person, acting as DM, might think the opposite. They might also split the baby and rule that SR doesn't apply to the tentacle effect but does apply to the cold damage effect.

The bottom line is that it's up to interpretation.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

@TML geas's save penalties don't rack up if the enemy makes the (very easy) will saving throw... Edit: ug ninja edit. Bands of steal is useless to a improved evasion enemy. Maeluths should only be able to do that to touched weapons, but if one had improved grapple I'd let the fiend hammar ability no generate an AoO...

@JMH everything

@dna1 good catch on glitterdust

@Maat_Mons: examples please?

@zaulsiin fixed

@snakeman: no because improved evasion/mettle upon a successful save negate any effect that allows a save

A couple of psionic powers to add to the mix:

Ectoplasmic Shambler: 1 round manifestation time, Long range, size of 10 ten-foot cubes, shapable, movable, 1 point damage/2 manifester levels, interferes with vision and spellcasting of those within its area

Swarm of Crystals: 1 standard action manifestation time, 15' range, cone-shaped spread, instantaneous creation effect, 3d4 slashing, augmentable for 1d4 damage per additional PP spent

Raging Flame [DR314 p. 21]: 1 std. act., med. range, burst effect, affects nonmagical fire, 2d6 nonmagical fire damage to all creatures who have caught fire

Dust Storm [DR331 p. 71]: 1 std. act., med. range, creation effect, 60' by 30' tall cylinder, conceals and deals 1d6 slashing damage to creatures ending turn inside area

Sleet Storm: 1 std. act., long range, 40' by 20' high cylinder, completely blocks vision (incl. darkvision), hampers movement

Wall of Sand [PGF p. 118]: 1 std. act., med. range, creation and earth effect, creates wall = 5' square/level, blocks ranged attacks, hampers movement

Freezing Fog [CArc p. 108]: 1 std. act., med. range, 20' radius by 20' high cloud, 1d6 damage/round, penalty on attack rolls

Transmute Rock to Mud: 1 std. act., med. range, earth effect, area = 2 contiguous 10' cubes/level, hampers movement, penalizes to-hit rolls and AC, no save/SR effect requires that target be the ground

Blinding Glory [BoED p. 92]: blinds all Evil creatures who remain in 100' radius of caster, lasts 1 hr./level

Chilling Tentacles [CArc p. 132]: Greater invocation, equal to 5th level spell, functions like Black Tentacles (which allows no SR), but also causes 2d6 cold damages to all creatures in its area, a 20' radius spread

Fireward [PGF p. 102]: as an attack spell this is only useful against Elemental Fire creatures, but for creatures of that type it does 1d6 damage/level, 15d6 max

Repel Wood: push away anyone or anything made of/carrying a wooden or partially wooden object, meaning just about any humanoid creature

Repel Metal or Stone: see Repel Wood, above, but even more likely to be effective

Whoa thanks. These are the posts I love. Its interesting that the shambler can't be attacked, just dispelled and TY for the swarm of crystals reminder.

Transmute rock to mud doesn't help though. The wood one is rare, but the metal one could be worth it.


I think I'll color all this for my next update after I check the above.

[dna1]

Blinding Glory [BoED p. 92]: blinds all Evil creatures who remain in 100' radius of caster, lasts 1 hr./level

wow that is awesome. mwhahaha i know what im throwing at my party next wk.  does that work on intelligent undead?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

The casting time and SR are still issues, though.

[snakeman830]

Caustic Mire and its invocation counterpart, Complete Mage

[Endarire]

Wall spells in general.  Especially if they prevent the target from escaping something nasty.

[Maat_Mons]

If you're adding wall spells, you should probably add stone shape. 

@Maat_Mons: examples please?

Fell drain applied to hail of stone is one example. 

[Saxony]

Spell: Deadfall, Druid 8, from Spell Compendium.

d6 damage per level in a cylinder.

[BeholderSlayer]

Permanent Wall of Force + place with 1 exit = eventual suffocation?

[veekie]

Only if the other surfaces are indestructible.

[Saeomon]

Permanent Wall of Force + place with 1 exit = eventual suffocation?

Dehydration or starvation would be the more likely result.

If you can effectively, and permanently, cordon off a foe using a spell or power in such a way that doesn't allow for a save or SR then hats off to ya. I like to contemplate ways of using Quintessence to do just that. Such things require a lot of planning and more than a little luck to pull off, though. Therefore, I think that's a bit outside of the scope of the OP's intent with this thread.

[McPoyo]

Permanent Wall of Force + place with 1 exit = eventual suffocation?

Dehydration or starvation would be the more likely result.

If you can effectively, and permanently, cordon off a foe using a spell or power in such a way that doesn't allow for a save or SR then hats off to ya. I like to contemplate ways of using Quintessence to do just that. Such things require a lot of planning and more than a little luck to pull off, though. Therefore, I think that's a bit outside of the scope of the OP's intent with this thread.

Incantatrix or Artificer Persisted Prismatic Sphere?

[Empirate]

Wind Wall - no shooting through this, except for giants and catapults.

Web - make your save and still be inside a Web. Move out very slowly.

Wall of Stone - you're friggin' stonewalled!

Entangle - your movement is impeded no matter what, even if you're not entangled.

Plant Growth - Entangle on speed, with a vengeance.

Pyrotechnics - the cloud effect blocks sight, even darkvision.

Sleet Storm - no save, no SR, you can't see a thing and can't even get out in one round because the radius is HUGE.

[BruceLeeroy]

Blizzard
Transmutation [Cold]
Level: Druid 5, Winter 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 100 ft.-radius/level spread
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial

Snow Depth Small Medium Large

Up to 6 inches Minor None None

61+ inches Total Total Major

[Bauglir]

Evasion and it's Improved Brethren only affect effects with Reflex: Half, and even then only on effects that deal damage as the effect that gets halved. There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries. So Bands of Steel is still pretty nice, because it's not affected. There aren't many Reflex saves that aren't damaging Reflex: Half effects, but it's worth keeping in mind. Just for reference, the quotes:

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

...

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

[X-Codes]

Stuff

You know, that spell lives or dies by whether Freedom of Movement is effective against it, and I'm inclined to think it doesn't.  Also, it's no good as a spell you just blindly throw around.  At all levels you're capable of casting it, it's AoE will cause you to wind up inside the effect, which means that you're going to be just as helpless as everyone else a few rounds after it goes off.  This spell is only effective in a build that incorporates Mindsight to overcome the visibility penalties.

[BruceLeeroy]

Or you could, y'know, leave after casting and come back to dig bodies out of the snow a few minutes later.

[Leram]

On blizzard, you don't have to worry about the bad stuff. Simply cast Snow Walk (Frostburn)(10 mins/lvl) and Snow Sight (1 hour/level) and enjoy your one sided combat. Once ran a druid that relied on blizzard and boreal winds inside the blizzard to make sure nothing happened.......ever.