Author Topic: XP Penalties and Dual Progression  (Read 20116 times)

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Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2010, 08:52:01 PM »
The best counterargument I can think of to the XP penalties for PrCs specifically (rather than the whole ToB argument) is to point out that with XP penalties applied to PrCs anyone taking a PrC the most obvious, normal, and books-recommended way (five or more levels of a base class, then start a PrC) will take an immediate XP penalty.

weenog

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2010, 09:03:13 PM »
The best counterargument I can think of to the XP penalties for PrCs specifically (rather than the whole ToB argument) is to point out that with XP penalties applied to PrCs anyone taking a PrC the most obvious, normal, and books-recommended way (five or more levels of a base class, then start a PrC) will take an immediate XP penalty.

That's sane, but what happens when it turns out you're dealing with the sort of mindset that thinks taking a PrC should impose an immediate XP penalty, assuming PrCs are all inherently overpowered just for being prestigious, and further assuming that the XP penalty is the counterbalance for that?
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McPoyo

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2010, 09:06:11 PM »
The best counterargument I can think of to the XP penalties for PrCs specifically (rather than the whole ToB argument) is to point out that with XP penalties applied to PrCs anyone taking a PrC the most obvious, normal, and books-recommended way (five or more levels of a base class, then start a PrC) will take an immediate XP penalty.
prcs aren't involved for penalties. It only involves base classes.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2010, 09:08:36 PM »
The best counterargument I can think of to the XP penalties for PrCs specifically (rather than the whole ToB argument) is to point out that with XP penalties applied to PrCs anyone taking a PrC the most obvious, normal, and books-recommended way (five or more levels of a base class, then start a PrC) will take an immediate XP penalty.
prcs aren't involved for penalties. It only involves base classes.

In the OP's first few posts:

Quote
So.  My question is, how do xp penatlies apply or not to dual progression classes.  Do prestige classes apply against the multiclassing limit?  For example does Hellfire warlock still count as warlock? 
Quote
Can you please give me some pager numbers to reference to my group, particularly for the prestige class exemption (when I asked them they said Prestige classes count...)
Quote
I like the customization that free multiclassing allows including dips but the DM is of the view that the xp penalties were specifically made to penalize people for dipping.

The OP was asking for help convincing his playgroup that PrCs don't count against multiclassing. I am offering a very simple example which makes clear that counting PrCs for multiclassing penalties makes no sense. I'm not sure how you got from this the idea that I believe PrCs are supposed to count for multiclass penalties.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:10:07 PM by Benly »

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2010, 09:18:38 PM »
Well I can see the DM countering that if you want a PrC with no penalties then you have to play a race for whom your base class is favored...

You all have been a great help thanks!

I'll let y'all know what his response is after I show him this thread...

McPoyo

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2010, 10:23:52 PM »
The best counterargument I can think of to the XP penalties for PrCs specifically (rather than the whole ToB argument) is to point out that with XP penalties applied to PrCs anyone taking a PrC the most obvious, normal, and books-recommended way (five or more levels of a base class, then start a PrC) will take an immediate XP penalty.
prcs aren't involved for penalties. It only involves base classes.

In the OP's first few posts:

Quote
So.  My question is, how do xp penatlies apply or not to dual progression classes.  Do prestige classes apply against the multiclassing limit?  For example does Hellfire warlock still count as warlock? 
Quote
Can you please give me some pager numbers to reference to my group, particularly for the prestige class exemption (when I asked them they said Prestige classes count...)
Quote
I like the customization that free multiclassing allows including dips but the DM is of the view that the xp penalties were specifically made to penalize people for dipping.

The OP was asking for help convincing his playgroup that PrCs don't count against multiclassing. I am offering a very simple example which makes clear that counting PrCs for multiclassing penalties makes no sense. I'm not sure how you got from this the idea that I believe PrCs are supposed to count for multiclass penalties.
I misread your post :P

Also, that was already answered in page one.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

fuinjutsu

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2010, 12:19:35 AM »
So far no one has said anything that negates his assertion that ToB makes core melee classes obsolete.

They are supposed to.  Because you need to splatbook pretty heavily to make a Paladin not suck horribly, and Barbarian and Monk builds typically never have more than 5 and 2 levels of reach respectively - Prc's are just that much better that what the base class gives.  And there are no Fighter builds, just builds that dip two levels of Fighter for bonus feats.

The simple matter is that even with other players spending their resources to buff him, a straight Fighter is STILL less useful in combat than many other classes' animal buddies.

NOTE: THE KEY RESOURCE IN D&D IS NOT STAT BONUSES, MONEY, XP, SPELLS, OR HP.  THE KEY RESOURCE IS EFFECTIVE ACTIONS.

You get 1 full round or 1 move and 1 standard action per round.  You have to use them effectively as possible.  This is why spellcasters automatically win over non-spellcasters in combat from level 5 on.  Because they have spells that "hurt the enemy or help my party, 100% of the time", while nonspellcasters have to hope they roll high on attack rolls or skill/attribute checks.

A caster can play without any action waste, or play with a chance of action waster for higher potential gains.  Noncasters always suffer action waste at least some of the time, and typically for less effect even when they succeed.

TOB effectively allows melee casters.  Which puts everyone on more even footing.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2010, 03:58:35 AM »
No, the key resource is MONEY.

Specifically REAL WORLD MONEY.

With REAL MONEY you can go to the STORE and at the STORE you can buy REAL PIZZA.

PIZZA you can serve to your DM and he will be GRATEFUL and NO LONGER HUNGRY.

And if your DM is SATIATED, you will end up with ALL THE LEVELS.  ALL OF THEM.

And then you will be HAPPY and HAVE PIZZA.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2010, 05:59:53 AM »
No, the key resource is MONEY.

Specifically REAL WORLD MONEY.

With REAL MONEY you can go to the STORE and at the STORE you can buy REAL PIZZA.

PIZZA you can serve to your DM and he will be GRATEFUL and NO LONGER HUNGRY.

And if your DM is SATIATED, you will end up with ALL THE LEVELS.  ALL OF THEM.

And then you will be HAPPY and HAVE PIZZA.

:rofl


[spoiler][/spoiler]