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Bigwig

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Thrallherd Handbook
« on: August 28, 2010, 01:25:50 PM »
Thrallherd Handbook


Table of Contents
Introduction
Attributes
Races
Entry classes
Other classes
Psionic Dominate
Epic levels
Abuse
Using your Thralls
Building an army

Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 01:26:19 PM »
Introduction
The thrallherd is one of the strongest prestige classes there is, anything another class can do the Thrallherd can have a minion do for him at his level-1. The greatest advantage with thralls is that the choice is not permanent, you can easily replace them for something that would benefit the situation more. This leads to making the Thrallherd flexible in addition to his strength. Additionally he has 8/10 ML progression and receives a boost to Psionic Dominate.

Requirements: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 8 ranks, Inquisitor feat. Manifester level 5th and able to manifest mindlink.


Attributes
  • Strength: Used for carrying capacity and climb/jump/swim checks. Use mule and rope for early levels. For later levels you will have an expendable workforce for carrying and powers for avoiding difficult climb/jump/swim checks.
  • Dexterity: Increases Initiative, Armor and Ranged Attacks. There are more efficient ways of increasing initiative, Armor will become useless at mid levels unless you focus on increasing it and your ranged attacks at higher levels should only be touch attacks which will actually become easier over time since your base attack increases but touch ac does not increase with monster CR.
  • Constitution: Increases hitpoints per level, Concentration checks and Fortitude save, what's not to like?
  • Intelligence: Assuming Int is your primary casting attribute. Increases skill points, Save DC and Bonus Power Points. If you plan on using dominate (you should) this should be your main stat.
  • Wisdom: Increases will save, you already have a good will save modifier from your classes so not worth investing in. Get 13 Wisdom for Inquisitor feat (prereq for Thrallherd) and then ignore.
  • Charisma: While this increases your followers and thralls you actually don't need that much in order to make great use of your thralls. If you have terrible stats it is possible to make cha your dumpstat and still get the highest level thrall all or most levels. See table below for more details. At early and epic levels charisma is still useful in order to get better believers earlier. However by the time you reach high level (15-20) you will easly max out your leadership score no matter what charisma you have. Note that while charisma will help you make more use of Psionic Charm this is a power that will quickly be overshadowed by Psonic Dominate

This table displays that as long as you advance Thrallherd level you will have no problem with 10 or even 8 charisma.

Character                               Thrallherd level          
Level       1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9    10
1           -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
2           -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
3           -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
4           -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
5           -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
6          10     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
7          12    10     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
8          12    10     8     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
9          14    12    10     8     -     -     -     -     -     -
10         14    12    10     8     6     -     -     -     -     -
11         14    12    10     8     6     4     -     -     -     -
12         16    14    12    10     8     6     4     -     -     -
13         16    14    12    10     8     6     4     2     -     -
14         18    16    14    12    10     8     6     4     2     -
15         18    16    14    12    10     8     6     4     2     1
16         18    16    14    12    10     8     6     4     4     2
17         20    18    16    14    12    10     8     6     4     2
18         20    18    16    14    12    10     8     6     4     2
19         18    16    16    12    10     8     6     4     2     1
20         16    14    14    10     8     6     4     2     1     1
      Charisma required to obtain maximum level thrall

Races
  • Human: Bonus feat and skill points. Always a solid choice.
  • KalashtarEberron: +1 PP per level, Mindlink for easy thrallherd entry. Great race, mindlink saves you a feat for non-telepaths and you get extra PP equivalent of +4 Int.
  • Grey ElfMM: [+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str] Good race, one of the best that has +Int, not my favorite.
  • IlluminanRoD: Decent if you can use Krau for +2 ML. Even with this I consider it weaker than a bonus feat unless you intend to lose more than 4 manifester levels.
  • Whisper GnomeRoS: [+2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Cha] Small size with 30ft speed. +4 racial hide and move silently. Lowlight and Darkvision. Self centered Silence, Ghost sound and Mage hand 1/day. Why is this race only LA+0?
  • Elan: [-2 Cha, +2 PP] Aberration. Extra survivability and some interesting shifts due to being Aberration.
  • WarforgedEberron: [+2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha] Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickened and energy drain. Does not eat/sleep/breathe. Being able to use Psionic Repair Damage on self can be incredibly useful early on.
  • Strongheart HalflingFRCS: [+2 Dex, -2 Str] Small size, Bonus Feat.
  • Other races: Any race with + to your primary casting attribute.


Entry Classes
There are a couple breakpoints for this PrC, most worth noting are 1, 9 and 10 levels
  • 1 Level: Mainly for Non-psion Kalashtar choosing to spend one level to get an easily replacable cohort one level higher than with leadership. I would not recomend this unless there's a good reason you have to physically abuse your followers/cohorts regulary and can't trick commoners into following you.
  • 9 Levels: Lose one manifester level for an improved version of Leadership and Psionic Dominate that affects humanoid, animal, fey, giant, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider without extra cost.
  • 10 Levels: Compared to 9 levels of this class this means you lose another manifester level (ouch) for 1 point cheaper Dominate and an extra thrall at your level -2. By level 15, when you normally reach level 10 Thrallherd this it means an level 13 minion no matter how low your charisma score is. I say it is worth it every time unless you are playing with houserules preventing your Thralls to be efficient.

Telepath
Default entry class. If you want you can trade 5th level feat for Telepathic Communication, or just let your believers maintain Mindlink on you. Even if you exclude Psionic Charm and Dominate from the Discipline Powers list Telepath has more powers to choose from than any other Discipline so its a solid choice. Having multiple "willing" bodies for Mindswitch is a plus.

Psion
D4 health, 36 powers known, good flexibility
Recomended instead of Telepath if you're looking for an specific alternative class feature or prefer multiple options from another Discipline Powers list.

ArdentCPsi
D6 health, 21 powers known, low flexibility when choosing spells, a couple of decent abilities from mantles. Has wisdom for caster stat, I prefer int as caster stat any day. That being said this class can still be useful if you intend to add another caster class with wisdom as modifier, intend to play a gish or a dual caster gish.

Wilder
D6 health, 4+int skills, 11 powers known and no access to Disciplines. Cha to touch AC. Cha as caster stat, good for getting strong Believers early and at epic levels.

EruditeCPsi
Psion Alternative. D4 health, 11 unique powers per day. Able to learn extra powers for a small XP cost and 8 hours meditation. Heavily limits your ability to take levels in other classes (including thrallherd) to one per erudite level.


Other Classes
Once you are done with your Thrallherd levels there are a couple of open options

Base Class
Continuing with your standard class is a solid all around choice.

Elocater
1 Level, D6 health, 6+int skills, +1 ML, Scorn Earth.
Expensive entry, 3 useless feats.
If you really want to be able to float over water or difficult terrain or are allowed to use Psychic Reformation or Retraining to get replace the wasted feats without losing the class abilities.

Anarchic InitiateCPsi
1-2 levels if you intend to use powers that benefit from Chaotic Surge

Arch Psion3.0 web
1-5 levels. Able to get extra abilities at the loss of power points. Abilities worth noting: Innate Psionics, Mastery of Power Negation (if playing with Negate Psionics), Sculpt Power. Greater Psionic Focus is something you either ignore or get three levels of. +6 to penetrate powers for 33 points is great just make sure you don't lose more power points than you are comfortable with.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 09:24:53 PM by Bigwig »

Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 01:26:32 PM »

Psionic Dominate
Epic Level
I would need to write a seperate handbook for this in order to reach any depth so I'll keep this section short.
There's no official epic level version of the Thrallherd released so work with your GM to have a non-official version approved or request that epic leadership feat applies to thralls.
Even if that is impossible for some strange reason you can make it work by keeping your Thralls alive.
Know that Charisma, Psicraft and Knowledge (psionics) will become a higher focus than before epic level and while Epic Psionic Powers are generally like Epic Spells but much less flexible they can still become powerful.
Either way you can always get one or two epic level caster thralls by the time you reach level 22-23 so you have nothing to worry about.


Abuse
Infinite gold:
Leadership feats states that the cohort should be equipped with gear appropiate for level and that followers functions as a low level cohort in this regard. Using the Table for NPC gear value per level this gives us just shy of 400000 gold in gear for the followers of a level 19 thrallherd, this is without using Mercantile or similar background. 400000 gold every 24 hours by simply ordering your followers to kill themselves? I'm sure you see why this can be a problem.
Solution: The easiest way to deal with this is simply not letting anyone other than the followers themselves touch their gear and have it disappear when the minion dies. It is also feasible to force the player to pay for all gear used by his minions.

Infinite XP:
Since Believers don't use an XP system and Thralls have a cap on how much XP they can benefit from they don't have much to lose from spending XP. A Thrall can spam spells "balanced" by XP-cost and crafting feats until he drops a level and then be replaced.
Solution: At least a significant portion of the XP cost should transfer to the Thrallherd.

Infinite followers:
A level 6 follower can reach a leadership score to achieve a level 6 follower which can reach a leadership to achieve a level 6 follower, and so on.
Solution: Dont let followers take leadership style feats unless it is part of a campaign with massive regional battles, even then you should give each follower a scaling penantly to his leadership score.

Infinite PP:
Courtesy of this thread.
Have a follower be a Metamind and use Font of Power, use Fusion to merge with the metamind and then use Temporal ReiterationCPsi to have the duration last for as long as you want
Solution: Don't let Temporal Reiteration work on things that are this easily abusable. Don't let Metamind's Font of Power work with Fusion since it does not work with metaconcert

Infinite Thralls:
Get the Thralls you want, release them and then use extended dominate on them that lasts 2 days / manifester level, get new thralls within 24 hours, repeat. Using Infinite PP from above you can dominate twice per round one normal and one from schism (second one not extended), each affecting multiple targets. This means that you can maintain control over around half a million high level thralls. If that's not enough just have your thralls control more, they should have no problem controlling quite a few at equal or higher than their level.
Solution: Restrict the amount of creatures that can be dominated at once. Don't let dominated creatures dominate other creatures.

Religious SacrificeBoVD:
Easy access to buffs and Gold/XP for crafting.  
Solution: This should be restricted in what kind of sacrifices the god accept and how often he rewards for them. The DC modifiers should reflect the difficulty in obtaining said sacrifice better. If thralls are considered valid sacrifices there should at least be an heavy penalty for using them.


Building Thralls
Leadership states that you are allowed to choose of your cohort race/class/aligment. Generally the GM will allow you to build the cohort yourself, even if your GM decides to make all your human wizards illiterate with only useless spells, toughness feat taken multiple times and skills in basketweaving you can always use Psychic Reformation to make your minions useful.

I prefer building support characters such as buffers and controllers since they can be made very powerful without making any party member feel left out, then again there's nothing wrong with using your primary character as support and using your thralls for other things.

There are more options available than I can possibly list here, don't be afraid to experiment, a complete revamp is only 24 hours away.
  • Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist - Standard Tier 1 casters, only 1-2 levels behind you. Very versatile.
  • Artificer - Is a seperated from the casters due to its excellent crafting. Favorite cohort by many.
  • Sorcerer - Not a bad replacement for wizard since you can simply replace him when you need different spells.
  • Twice-Betrayer of Shar - Is able to persist most spells, use in moderation since certain spells can break the game.
  • Psion - While you should have most of the useful powers already more never hurts, certain powers have good synergy with multiple psionics.
  • Hood (Dragoon) - High damage melee build.
  • Fighter/Tripmonkey - Tripper for giving battlefield control to the physical characters. If you feel safer knowing that there's a BSF with a sole purpose in life of protecting you. Good for control inside anti-magic fields.
  • Archer - For when the front line is getting crowded and you don't want to compete with the other casters.
  • Duskblade, Hexblade - Melee classes with good debuffing ability.
  • Bard - Considered the fifth party member of choice by some and considered terribly underpowered by others. Then again, you can afford weak thralls and his songs can become quite powerful buffs.
  • Trixie - Well rounded extra party member.


If you find the actual size a problem when fitting Thralls into dungeon crawls there are some options for that:
  • Cleric with persist spells and Greater Status
  • Wildshape caster using tiny and/or flying.
  • Fiend of Possession.
  • Polymorph Any Object a Thrall into something tiny.



Building an army
If you are able to build your followers then you can optimize them for whatever level you obtain them on and whatever environment you are in at the moment or just fool around since they are easy to replace.
When looking for inspiration for low level characters go here.

Nukers[spoiler]
Race: Whisper GnomeRoS
Class: Warlock 1CA

Feats: MortalbaneBoVD
Invocations: Choose one: Eldritch Spear, Summon Swarm, Darkness, Devil's Sight, Spiderwalk, See the Unseen.

Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Spot or Listen. Grab other skills as appropiate (Profession (any), Handle Animal, Use Magic Device)
Equipment: MW tools to aid your skill checks, you can use armor but don't expect much from it.

Notes: Decent Stealth, decent damage. Both useful in battles against high level opponents and large scale battles.

You can get some good use from novas/chargers with true strike at mid levels but expect to hit a point where even with truestrike they will miss more often than not and you'll be forced to upgrade to wraithstrike.

[/spoiler]
Support[spoiler]
Divine MindCPsi with Time Aura, +2 Init to anyone within 5ft.

Dragon ShamanPHB2
Get one for each ability you want, 30 feet range. Double effect for 5th level Dragon Shamans:
  • Energy shield: Deals 2 energy damage against most melee attacks
  • Power: +1 melee damage rolls
  • Presence: +1 Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate
  • Resistance: 5 Resistance against acid, electricity, fire or cold
  • Senses: +1 Listen, Spot, Initiative
  • Toughness: DR 1/magic
  • Vigor: Fast healing 1 up to half health

Human Clerics with High charisma, Planning domain, Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persist). Good spells to persist:
  • Bless: Allies gains +1 morale to attack +1 to fear saves
  • Blessed AimSC: Allies gain +2 morale to ranged attack rolls

Kobold Bards with Dragonfire Inspiration and a Masterwork War Drum, +2d6 damage to all allies for each of the elements (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic).

It is worth noting that with Tomb-Tainted Soul and Black Sand you can give your followers constant healing.

[/spoiler]
Scouts[spoiler]
Race: Whisper GnomeRoS
Class: Focused Specialist Wizard or Sorc 1
Prohbibited Schools: Evocation, Necromancy and one of: Abjuration(Hold Portal), Illusion (Disguise Self, Silent Image), Conjuration (Benign Transposition), Enchantment (Shock and Awe).

Feats: Skill Focus (Spot) or Precocious Apprentice (Invisibility)
Spells: 0-Silent Portal, Ghost Sound, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Message. 1-Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter, Shock and Awe, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Reduce Person, Disguise Self, Hold Portal, Silent Image (Choose 4)
Familiar: Owl or Cat

Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Spot. Grab other skills as appropiate (Listen, Profession (any), Handle Animal)
Equipment: MW tools that aid with your skill checks. Scrolls. Signed Last Will and Testament.

Notes: The fastest way of disarming traps without automatic reset is triggering them. Cast mindlink and let this guy scout ahead while reporting everything back to you. Just have a couple of replacement scouts ready.

Use Shock and Awe if you happen to catch enemies off-guard. Reduce Person, Silent Portal or Disguise Self to get past areas you would not normally. Hold Portal or Swift Expeditious Retreat to get away from opponents and in combat use Nerveskitter and Benign Transposition to aid higher level allies. Detect Magic means you won't have to search most rooms.

[/spoiler]
Necromancers[spoiler]
Race: Human
Class: Wizard or Sorc 1

Feats: Precocious Apprentice (Command Undead), Spell Thematics(Command Undead)
Traits: Spellgifted (Necromancy)

Notes: Can cast command undead once per day with 3 day duration, no save for nonintellegent undead.

[/spoiler]
Skillmonkeys[spoiler]
Unlike normal skillmonkeys here you can afford to have a single character focus completely on a single skill.

Most of the time you'll want to create a first level Human Marshal, max the primary attribute for the skill, put the rest in charisma and use motivate aura of primary attribute for your skill. Grab masterwork tools and feats that boost the skill (i.e. Skill Focus, Alertness etc). Spare skillpoints can be used for bonus languages (or synergies if level 2+).

[/spoiler]

Dungeon crawling with Believers.
Know that as CR advances but your Believers don't some parts of your followers will become useless, keep this in mind when designing followers and focus on the parts that scale well with level. Here are some general guidelines for level 1 followers fighting against high level enemies:

Things that work well are:
  • Touch attack
  • Guaranteed hits (Coup de grace)
  • Concealment (Tower shield)

Things that work poorly are:
  • Melee (unless they are wielding a lit barrel of gunpowder)
  • Normal attacks
  • Abilities with save (can still be decent, expect them to make save 95% of the time unless you have insane modifiers)
  • AC / Saves

When fighting in a dungeon space will be an issue, so the usefulness of a damage dealing follower is how much damage he can do on average per round round times the amount of followers you can fit in a combat situation while allowing all to deal damage.

Say we use 100 Warforged Level 1 Warlocks. Warforged means they don't have to eat and warlocks can use ranged touch attack every round. Polymorph any object on them into Homunculus which is a Tiny Construct with flying. Now you should be able to fit 4 per square ground, more if there's a wall nearby that they can spider climb on. And then you fill the air with as many as your DM will allow without collisions. Now we give them all the MoralbaneBoVD feat allowing them to deal 3d6 damage each on eldrich blast touch attack against mortals five times per day and 1d6 unlimited times per day.

Now we still have 100 Least Invocations to choose, which one depends on the situation, they can:
  • Grant 20% concealment to anything within 20ft radius with Darkness.
  • Shoot into magical darkness with no extra miss chance with Devil's Sight.
  • Attack from 250 ft range with Eldritch Spear.
  • Climb on any surface and ignore Webs with Spiderwalk.
  • See invisible with See the Unseen.
  • Summon Swarm is great with clashing armies.

Even with only +4 to hit (+2 dex, +2 size, +0 BAB) they can still hit regularly since touch AC even for high CR mobs is around 11. Both the amount of creatures you can fit per square and their hit rate can be increased by polymorphing them into something even smaller. But then again 100 +4 ranged touch attacks for 3d6 each every round should be more than enough for most situations, remember to stay near the power of the rest of your party.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:56:46 AM by Bigwig »

Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 01:26:55 PM »
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Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 04:57:06 PM »
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Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 04:57:27 PM »
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Prime32

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 05:07:23 PM »
You can also make good use of thralls as batteries for feats and powers known (via feat leech and metaconcert).

PhaedrusXY is currently playing an undead psion in a PbP game on the boards who's haunt shifted into an airship filled with thralls - he sends out his psicrystal with the party, and has them manifest through it.


What about an ardent entry? I'm sure there's some mantle which grants mindlink - if not, there's kalashtar.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 05:15:10 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 07:13:47 PM »
Good point, feat leech and metaconcert deserves a special mention. They can also be combined with infinite PP/duration to get all powers known, all feats you can think of (including those that can be taken multiple times as many times as you want) and possibly infinite health with Psionic Body, depending on how you interpret that feat. But then again it is possible to interpret Psionic Body as the extra hit points not going away when the other psionic feats does so it's not clearly written.
I don't recommend actually doing this since it will break your campaign.

PhaedrusXY has an interesting build, showing one of the many possibilities with the PrC. Check it out here.

Ardent is already listed, I didn't notice that wisdom boosts feat leech but its usefulness is very conditional unless abused. I find the mantles to be more restrictive than the bonuses they give are worth and wisdom for casting modifier to be inferior unless you are going for dual caster progression which is not recommended with thrallherd.

carnivore

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 08:32:21 PM »
Ardent is actually an ideal candidate for Thrallherd .... due to the Powers Known being linked to Manifesting level .... great combined with a Fast Progression spellcasting PrC..... exa:

Ardent 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-priest 2/ Thrall Herd 5/ Psychic theurge 8

19th lvl Manifesting(with Practiced Manifester) ... 9th lvl powers, bonus powers : Pisonic Charm, Psionic Dominate
14th lvl Divine Spell casting(with Practiced Casting) with 9th lvl Spells

 :D





Glustekem

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 05:35:10 AM »
Thank you for putting together this handbook!

I was contemplating putting together an egoist Thrallherd build.  If it had enough feats in the build Elan or warforged might be nice.

Starting with the egoist build Carnivore had put together a while back:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0

What do you think Carnivore?  Can you put us together a build to see if it works well?

One big question will always be how to keep low level believers useful.  Other than just using them to get yourself extra actions :) People might want to consider some unusual believers for versatility, for example a warforged binder.  Halfling druids on riding dogs (double your minion, double your fun).  However after a certain point you want to keep them in groups, you would get too confused having one believer of every class & race (although it might be interesting).  

Will the Artificer be the most used thrall or will it be a tank?

I suppose a thrallherd could just camp outside a dungeon and keep sending thralls in who replace themselves....
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 05:42:35 AM by Glustekem »

Bigwig

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 12:54:20 PM »
@carnivore
Thanks for the post, I'll add to the Ardent section that they are excellent for gish players, dual casters or even dual caster gishes. :D

I know there's some absolutely devestating cleric self buffs available and wis to AC is nice but for non-gish characters I prefer having an 18th level cleric/basketweaver/whatever secondary thrall and essentially gaining extra actions per round.

Can someone try some Ardent builds with 10 levels in thrallherd to see if it can be worth raising the Ardent rating to blue?
Since Practiced Manifester allows us to lose another 2 ML we will mainly lose 2 levels worth of power points but only gain 5th level Ur-Priest spells. 2 levels of a class with full fort/will allows for 7 levels in ur-priest and 10 levels thrallherd but that means only 18th level manifester and a loss of 110 PP compared to 5/10/5 thrallherd.
The Ur-priest feats required hurts but can possibly Psychic Reformation to get rid of required feats.

@Glustekem
I have added a section under Building an army that covers how to make level 1 Believers useful in combat against high CR enemies, note that they will not as useful against high SR opponents. For higher levels Shield Self from the binding Dahlver-Nar allows your Believers to be somewhat useful "tanks".

As for egoist build, I'm assuming you're looking for some shaping gish type character using improved rapidstrike, I'm not huge on gish characters so I'm sure someone can come up with a better build.
Get egoist and 0-2 levels in ranger, take as many levels of thrallherd as you need in order to get the most out of your charisma and then slayer for the rest, if you still got levels to spare 1-2 levels of warshaper.
Know that as with most gish characters this will leave you with a couple of weak levels so your party needs to be prepared for this.

As for thrall, It should be possible to have a psion turned Fiend of Possession giving one of your weapons +6 and maintaining share pain on you, giving you back some of that survivability you have lost. Otherwise use a cleric with divine metamagic to spam persist buffs or druid/wizard with greater magic fang or haste. That this is not how you get the most out of your thralls but part of being a gish is pumping as many buffs on one target as possible. :)

For Believers get a couple of Kobold Bards with Dragonfire Inspiration and a Masterwork War Drum, +2d6 damage to all allies for each of the elements (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 01:08:06 PM by Bigwig »

Stormcrow

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 03:19:22 PM »
nice handbook, could use some builds with fallowers

Glustekem

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 08:14:34 AM »
Links to improving your leadership score:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8817.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7795656#post7795656
-Which give us options to max out our leadership score at level 6 - we should create a build for a thrallherd that does the same thing.  However most don't work stack with Thrallherd...I suppose at 7th level you could use one of these 6th level builds as a sub-commander.  But I don't like the prospect of what happens if they are killed and the mob remains..

Really the only one which works is:
Cloak of Charisma +2/+4/+6, 4K/16K/36K gp for +1/+2/+3 leadership
-Which is one of many reasons why my Thrall is likely to be a maxed out artificer.

While you don't need a high charisma, if you start with a charisma based build you will end up with:
1-better believers sooner, really powerful
2-less levels of thrallherd in your build, which means a more powerful build overall
3-no second Thrall, or second lost level of manifester level, as you would never take the final level of thrallherd.
-For this reason I'm going to rate Charisma equal to Constitution.  I could see making it higher than your intelligence; you can do stuff yourself or you can have more people of higher level do it for you - the later option may be more powerful (if the thralls don't die)...although until level 6 when you start the PRC cha will not be more optimal than Int & Con...

-Now that I think about it, at mid levels, it might be worth adding a level of Marshall for motivate charisma at level 7: The difference between say a +5 and +10 bonus to your leadership score is huge (worth a lost manifester level?).  Although at higher levels the loss of a manifester level is probably not going to be worth it...
L7 [no charisma bonus] leadership=9: 1 6th level thrall
L7 [+5 charisma bonus] leadership=14: 1 6th level thrall, Believers: 15 first level, 1 second level
L7 [egoist5,thrallherd1,marshall1; cha+5 X2=+10] = 7+1+10=18: 1 6th level thrall, Believers: 35 first level, 3 second level, 1 third level & 1 fourth level.

When to use thralls:
-Having lots of workers to make you money Ex. If you want miners that won't steal your resources (Reminder thralls can be undead/constructs, although I dislike undead as they would tend to get turned too easily as they are a lower level than you)
-If you want something built/created in secret and can't/don't want to do it yourself
-If you have a ship they would make for a crew you don't have to pay or split your loot with.  Best pirate crew ever?
-If you wanted to play a one PC game, say as captain of the afore mentioned ship.
-If you want people to worship you, in order to further your goals of godhood
-Anywhere you know your minions are going to be constantly dying. Ex. The leader of mercenaries.
->If you are not going to abuse them (no pay, constantly dying, etc.), then take the leadership feat instead of the thrallherd PRC which you can get the leadership score higher faster simply because it has more feats available.

The build (that I was hoping someone with experience would modify for us) I had posted a link to appeared to be the best in Carnivore's thread to me (and certainly the most detailed).  I'm not thinking of my build as a gish.

Egoist Build
[spoiler]Sample Character Builds :LEVEL 1-6


Note:Egoist
Level 1
Feats: Psionic Body, Psicrystal Affinity (Single-minded), Psionic Talent
Powers: Attraction, Matter Agitation, Vigor
Skills: Concentration, Craft, Knowledge, Psicraft and other [trained only] int-based skills.
Equipment: Studded leather, light wooden shield, light crossbow, bolts.

At level 1, you have 10 hp and 4 pp, + con mod and half your int mod, respectively. Comparing with other classes, you have the hp of a fighter, can cast more, and more varied, spells than a sorceror, and you have the ac of a typical druid. That should almost guarantee surviving to level 2. Instead of fighting with weapons, you use Matter Agitation, which deals about as much as most weapons, but does so consistently every round instead of only when you hit. As an area effect, it's also effective against swarms, and out of combat it can burn down structures/objects, cook food or boil water etc.

Begin more challenging fights with a 5 hp Vigor buff. Use Attraction to lure away guards, negotiate or to avoid fighting all together. The crossbow is useful against weaker enemies when you want to save pp. Use the craft skill to make cheaper items so you can buy better armor and afford more alchemical items sooner. Take advantage of your high int mod by "unlocking" trained only skills with single skill points (a cross class rank in decipher script is not a bad idea), and max out useful class skills depending on discipline (spot, listen, diplomacy, autohypnosis etc.).

Be sure to make use of your psicrystal. It is really three feats in one since you get Alertness, SF: ConcentrationPsicrystal FAQ and Building Guide.

Level 2
New Powers: Grease, [any].
Skills: This is the level of skill synergies! Max out what matters.
Equipment: Masterwork chain shirt, large darkwood shield, riding dog (combat trained, light barding), +2 masterwork concentration item for 50 gp (subject to DM approval), everburning item for 110 gp (continual light effect enchanted on a copper piece, for instance), alchemical items.

Grease is an excellent tactical power (disarm, field control, escape grapple), and prefered over Entangling Ectoplasm at this level since your ranged attack is so poor. It is already good for disarming or to get out of a grapple, and its battlefield control use will continue to grow as the duration increases.

For your last level 1 slot, you can pretty much take what suits you best. There are many useful utility powers here such as Synesthete, Control Light, or Missive. Pick what you think will be most useful to you and your party up to level 7 (at which point you will be reforming anyway).

With your new equipment, you now have ac 16 + dex mod, with only -1 ACP. Add 10 hp vigors, riding dog (compares to a level 1 construct, and it can be ridden/controled by your psicrystal) and grease, and you have recipe that will take you to level 3 in one piece. You can craft most of your equipment yourself for 1/3 the cost. Pick up an eternal light source (that can be attached to your psicrystal, for instance) and make/comission a masterwork concentration item as per the PHB. Also consider that your psicrystal can use the aid another action to help you concentrate (it must pass a DC 10 check, but it has the same ranks as you do). Since it's also single-minded, you can potentially have a +12 concentration modifier by level 2 (not counting constitution modifier or the possibility to take skill focus etc.) Also remember that you can expend your focus to take 15 on a concentration check (you have no other uses for focus at this point), which means you can pass DCs nearing the 30 range.

Level 3
New Powers: Levitate, Ego Whip.
New Feat: EK: Minor Creation.
New Equipment: See below.

Minor Creation will solve many, many low level problems and can be used with your craft skills to create poison or alchemical items, food, prepare an ambush (traps, soaking in oil, wooden obstacles), get utility items (such as a ladder, wall or bridge), make incendiary bombs (wooden spheres with oil, great with matter agitation) etc. For a much more in-depth view on this power, see Minor Creation and You, a Small Guide.

Ego Whip is a potent new weapon that incapacitates rather than kills (which means it also has a utility use). Consider a typical CR 3 foe such as an Ogre. It has 29 hp and 7 cha (will save +1). Blasting it continously with Ego Whip will consume much more pp than concentrating with matter agitation, but you can disable it in only 2-4 rounds, single-handedly! Best of all, it can't act during those rounds if it fails the save. And even on a save, the power still deals cha damage.

Levitate means avoiding all ground-based enemies. Just manifest and move 20' into the air - problem solved. From this position, you can use ego whip or matter agitation as you please. If you can't use this defense to any effect, buff with vigor instead. Levitate also allows you to get to hard to reach places, get an overview of the landscape, recover from pit traps, long falls etc.

The level 7 build has a more definitive item list based on available gold at that point, but until then you can pick and choose from the list above whenever you have gold to spend.For a better idea of Cheap useful items...see Bunko's Bargain Basement: Magic Items That Are a Steal!

Level 4-6
By level 3, you have covered most of your fundamental bases. You have varied forms of attack (matter agitation, ego whip, grease, animal minions, alchemical and/or psionically created items, crossbow), strong defense (vigor, levitate, good ac and hp), and lots of utility (minor creation, attraction, psicrystal, grease). This leaves a lot of flexibility before attaining level 7, allowing you to tailor your build to your specific needs and opportunities. A few of the powers and feat slots are fixed, while recommendations are provided for others.

Level 4:Empathic TransferShare Pain is a good core alternative if you often find that you have more than one round to buff before important fights (combine with shared Vigor on your psicrystal). Mass Missive is a very good alternative for the tactically savvy. Crystal Storm and Psychoportive Shelter are wonderful if you can take them.

Level 5: There are no alternatives here, take Time Hop and Dispel PsionicsMaze spell on an enemy, remove a dying ally from combat and deal with it later (no time will have passed for the ally) etc. Dispel PsionicsEK: Energy MissileLevel 6:Craft DorjeIdentify is a good power to put in a dorje.

LEVEL 7Psychic ReformationMetamorphosis , which is in itself offense, defense and utility in a single power. MetamorphosisMetamorphosis and the feat Metamorphic Transfer offer at this level.

MetamorphosisMetamorphic Transfer to get access to up to 8 HD forms at this level. There are many useful combat forms and a few (Ex)Ground combat: Annis Hag. This form comes with 25 strength, +10 to natural armor and the full attack routine claw/claw (1d6+7) bite (1d6+3). Even more impressive are the (Ex) attacks improved grab, rake and rend. This form beats face while offering adequate melee protection.
Aerial combat:Aquatic combat: Aboleth. 4 tentacle attacks and 26 strength! Also good combat abilities overall and great swim capabilities.
Multi-purpose:Metamorphic Transfer
This feat is a toolbox in itself when you consider all the supernatural abilities that are available to you. You can make no more than three transfers per day, which often means once per encounter. This allows you to cherry pick the most useful ability from your repertoire of available monsters. If the transferred ability is use activated, you may only use it up to three times (even if it was at will for the real monster). That should still be quite enough for the encounter though. Here are some of the most useful abilities available to you at ML 8.

Body Thief (Intellect Devourer): This is almost like mind switch, only more disgusting. Can be used to animate a powerful fallen enemy to continue the fight, or to gain basic information from foes that die in combat before you can get any answers from them.
Destructive Harmonics (Destrachan): The material version of this is particularly interesting for various uses (blast down a door, destroy weapons, or create a hole in the ground where an enemy is standing).
Detect Thoughts (Doppelganger): Reconnaisance and information gathering.
Dimension Door (Blink Dog): You can do this as a free action and act afterwards, which offers superb mobility in combat. Move and manifest as you please, and get out of any bind. Also offers blink (though there are better defensive options) and the track feat.
Enslave (Aboleth): The aboleth comes with a (Su) dominate person effect up to three times per transfer. While useful, dominating someone as a huge, fishlike amphibian has its social issues.
Ethereal Jaunt (Phase Spider): This should probably be treated as a use activated ability for play balance. Still very useful for defense and reconnaisance.
Freedom of Movement (Spider Eater): Not the most useful form normally, but if you really need freedom of movement, you can get it here.
Greater InvisibilityJetMagic Circle Against Evil (Lammasu): Useful when you need to hedge out evil outsiders or stop mental control.
QuicknessSilent Image (Cloaker): This goes a long way with a little imagination, and makes up for the lack of illusions in psionics. Yet another reason to morph into a cloaker!

Melee Damage:
We have powerful fighting forms for all environments.
Direct Damage: Hydra jet for 24d6 fire or cold damage should be enough.
Battlefield control: Few abilities are relevant here, unfortunately.
Save or Die: We have (Su) dominate person and infinite (Ex) hold monster. Sufficient.
Information Gathering: Excellent reconnaisance forms (cloaker, pixie and phase spider - or simply morph into an object such as a coin), body thief, detect thoughts, dominate etc.
Transportation: A much improved dimension door effect (blink dog), but self only.
Healing: Unfortunately, no (Su) healing is available to humans in core. If you play an outsider or have access to other monsters, it's a different story.
Buffing: Metamorphosis is a prime example of a buff, but also self only.
NPC interaction: Even though you have powers like detect thoughts and dominate, they are inconvenient to use in a non-offensive environment (since you need to turn into a doppelganger or aboleth!). Using Metamorphosis to assume a disguise can be very useful though. But to be honest, this area also needs work.

So it seems we have yet to cover battlefield control and healing, and should also consider improving buffing, transportation and NPC interactions some more. We also want an alternative offensive strategy for when Metamorphosismetamorphosis concept.

Alternative Offensive Strategy
Undead are perhaps the biggest threat to a Metamorphosis strategy. You may want to avoid melee combat due to nasty drain or other close range effects, and your hold monster and dominate options will not work here. Against spell casters, you may also prefer a defensive form such as an invisible pixie, and must be able to produce a relevant threat in that position. Astral Construct answers both these needs as it is immune to most problem undead attacks, and is an expendable threat that can be produced on demand. This also settles our fourth feat pick to Boost Construct.

Yet another back-up alternative is Crystal Shard. Wonderful with the Pixie form and bypasses antimagic field even when the target is immune to your (Ex) hold monster. With Metamorphosis, Metamorphic Transfer, astral construct and crystal shard, you have an offensive repertoire that will last and be fully sufficient up to the epic levels.

Battlefield Control
We have two excellent options here: Entangling Ectoplasm and Time Hop. For only 1 pp, you have a guaranteed 5 round entangle as a ranged touch attack (great with your high dex forms!) that will stop a charger, lower ac and attacks, and force casters to make concentration checks. For a 5 pp time hop, you can displace a friend, foe or object up to 8 rounds - much like a low level maze spell. Also has many utility uses (getting past obstacles without a trace, setting up ambushes etc).

Healing
As mentioned previously Vigor and Empathic Transfer is one of the most efficient means of healing in the mid levels. Vigor is also a very good power in itself, though you may not want to use it too liberally. With all the defensive options available to you, it is unlikely that you will suffer much damage yourself. Check with your DM if he or she would allow you to heal yourself with this combo too, or simply rely on the cleric or potions for that. Body AdjustmentTrue Metabolism later on.

Buffing
VigorVigor liberally with a Metamorphosis concept. MetamorphosisVigorMetamorphosis concept and buffs that do something useful for the entire party. Inertial ArmorMental Barrier and Intellect FortressDispel PsionicsTouchsight is also a very important buff to offset invisibility, concealment, blindness, darkness etc. This gives us a powerful buff package that can help ourselves as well as our allies.

TransportationDimension Swapvigor and move to the nearest ally. On your next turn, you heal him with empathic transfer and swap him for the most seriously wounded party member, which you heal and swap on your next turn!

The synergy with astral construct is also wonderful. If some fool tries to grapple you, they may soon find that they are grappling with an astral construct instead. Get the party fighter out of melee with some nasty undead energy draining monster and replace him with an immune astral construct. Or use it with Metamorphosis and replace a more frail party member with yourself in a combat form. In fact, you can go completely defensive and accomplish a lot behind the scenes with this and your other powers: Go invisible pixie and get to a good vantage point. Start bringing the enemy down to size for your melee characters with entangling ectoplasm and summon an astral construct mid combat. Maneuver allies into favorable positions with dimension swapNPC Interactions
Our first pick here is Tongues to enhance our MetamorphosisAttractionEgoist, it will cost you 950 xp to acquire these powers at level 7 (including manifesting psychic reformation down to level 1). It will take 3 weeks of secluded research all in all, during which time other party members could tend to their personal matters (perhaps there are also other casters in the party that also want to do some research, craft items etc.). The xp and time can be spread out over levels 4-6 however, to fit the needs of the campaign.

Feats
You have already picked four out of six feats to make the most of your powers. Our fifth pick will be Psicrystal Affinity+2 initiative improvement. Besides the various uses of a psicrystal at your ML, the share powers ability is incredible with MetamorphosisMental Barrier against challenging opponents. You Hold Monster anything nearby???????Psionic BodySummary of Level 7
Here are the feats and powers compiled, along with skill advice and 19000 gp worth of suitable equipment.

Feats: Metamorphic transfer, boost construct, ability focus (stupor), overchannel, psicrystal affinity (nimble), psionic body.

Powers: Astral construct, attraction, crystal shard, entangling ectoplasm, vigor, inertial armor, tongues, dimension swap, empathic transfer, time hop, dispel psionics, touchsight, mental barrier, Metamorphosis, intellect fortress.

Skills: You can change these with Psychic Reformation too, so drop skills that were useful at lower levels (craft skills, healing etc.) for something more useful. Knowledge skills can be very important depending on house rules for shape changing abilities like MetamorphosisMetamorphosis forms as your manifester rises, and add new tricks to your psionic repertoire as you acquire more advanced powers.

New MetamorphosisRoper:Behir: Remember this form for the future with Greater Metamorphosis and Fusion. Using only Fusion (and normal Metamorphosis), this can slap a +9 dex and +9 deflection bonus on any other (preferably low dex) form. With Greater MetamorphosisDragon Turtle: This form is available at level 10 and allows you to capsize ships. +17 natural armor bonus!

Power and Feat Progression

Level 8:Wall of Ectoplasm adds a useful ability to your repertoire here, and can trap a foe in a hemisphere for quite some time, or divide the battlefield in more managable portions. Psionic Divination also brings something new and useful to the table. Having the DM give you clues on how to best proceed is a sure way to increase your success. Use it liberally.

Level 9:
At this level you get Psionic Revivify, which is perhaps the best revive effect in the game, and Plane Shift to round out your transportation portfolio. RevivifyExtend Power here (see level 10).

Level 10: Level 10 means ML12 with Overchannel, which in turn means full day duration for your 1 hour/level powers! For your bonus feat here, take Psionic Meditation, since Extend Power also has a combat use in Entangling Ectoplasm. You will also gather quite a few metapsionic powers in the levels to come, so it will come in handy. At this level you pick up Power Resistance, which is a decent catch all defense power before you get better options at higher levels. There are few good level 5 powers to take at this point (Adapt BodyEnergy Wall in your last slot. Energy Wall has many utility uses, and protects your Wall of Ectoplasm from damage too. Its usefulness will continue to grow as you progress in levels.

Level 11: You only get one power at this level, but what a power it is: Temporal Acceleration. It changes everything. Overchannel and extend it so it lasts 2 rounds immediately when you get it, and handle all your buffing in a swift action! You can now use multiple buffs and go nova if the situation so requires. Choker quickness is a boon here, especially when you can increase the duration further. This also applies to Fission.

Level 12: Yet another multi-purpose power lies in Psionic Disintegrate, especially when combined with Split Psionic Ray (your feat at this level). Disintegrate is good for offense, for battlefield control (walls, ceilings, floors), and as an answer to specific effects (such as Wall of Force). Split Ray also enables you to deal 24d6 damage (no save) with an overchanneled crystal shard at this level. For your final level 6 power, take Psionic Contingency. This is a very cheap life insurance, and can store Temporal Acceleration, Plane Shift or Psionic Revivify, for instance. See the epic build below for more inspiration.

Level 13: Here you simply get a new all day buff: Personal MindblankDispel PsionicsLevel 14: Now you can make even more out of your energy walls with a split Energy Conversiontemporal acceleration. This level also offers Fission, which is the key to go nova like you have never gone nova before. Manifest temporal acceleration, and metamorph to a choker transferring quickness. For the extra action, manifest fission, and have your fissioned self turn into a choker too, transferring quickness, and using the extra action to do something useful (such as buffing with vigor to prevent overchannel damage). You now have 4 actions each round the TA lasts to play with.

Level 15: Finally, you get Greater TeleportPsychic Chirurgery: Telekinetic Sphere. This is a catch-all defense for the entire party (see the epic section), and you can amazingly continue to be effective within it by taking Burrowing Power as one of your two feats here (Fusion and Choker quickness makes the kill even quicker). For you other feat, take Psicrystal Containment, in case you want to add more metapsionics to your burrowing powers. It also allows extended, split Energy Conversion for even more pp economy, letting you blast for a very long time.

Levels 16-20:Psychic ReformationFusion, Bend Reality, Assimilate (+4 unnamed bonus to all ability scores!) and Greater Metamorphosis. The possibilities with Greater Metamorphosis (and as a result, Fusion) are too vast for this guide, but do visit this thread for a full review of its use. (Complete List of Supernatural Abilities:)[/spoiler]

« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 02:01:28 AM by Glustekem »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2010, 12:27:13 PM »
Thrallherd is a good class for thinking outside the box. Got a gaggle of level 1's taking up space? Use them as spies, as an information network, as a swarm (using mob rules), as buffers (bards and marshals are great, since multiple different effects that you can get from bardsong and auras stack, and there are tons of these, especially for bards), as distractions, as "trapfinders," as artisans, as a source of XP (via liquid pain or ambrosia...or both, if they're masochists), as a cheap source of healing, as readily available mounts (nothing says they have to be humanoids), as cover fire via archery (quantity can sometimes outdo quality), labor forces, a good source of low-level spells, and so on.

Also, note that the thrallherd ability isn't mind-affecting, and the only cap is power level, so don't hesitate to pull in undead, constructs, plants, vermin, and other critters you normally couldn't get. This PrC is one way to become a psionic necromancer; your minions were decimated by the Forces of Goodtm while you escaped? More will pop up tomorrow. You don't even have to be a willing necromancer, but the walking dead will shamble your way even so. Could be a good way to make an exalted Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic-Good necromancer and not have to worry about falling (so long as you act appropriately about using your unwilling resources). A bunch of necrocarnum zombies, some wraiths and shadows, and some necrocarnexes and black sand, and you could be considerably more powerful than any dread necromancer would be...

...Even better if you take the Corpsecrafter feats, since thrallherd never mentions exactly HOW you get your thralls; if they spontaneously arise from your mere presence, it's all good.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2010, 04:47:11 PM »
...Even better if you take the Corpsecrafter feats, since thrallherd never mentions exactly HOW you get your thralls; if they spontaneously arise from your mere presence, it's all good.

Unfortunately, Corpsecrafter says "each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell". Thrallherd's power is neither a spell nor necromancy.

You could argue to break up that sentence as "Each undead you (raise) or (create with any necromancy spell)" instead of "each undead you (raise or create) with any necromancy spell", but this raises the question of why it would bother to specify necromancy to begin with as any undead you created with a necromancy spell would be by default an undead you had raised.

snakeman830

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2010, 10:48:53 PM »
Psianimate Dead?  It's from Hyperconcious, but it's not a Necromancy spell.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Prime32

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »
Psianimate Dead?  It's from Hyperconcious, but it's not a Necromancy spell.
Wouldn't that fall under equivalency?
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

carnivore

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2010, 11:14:21 AM »
i am currently working on a fun Thrallherd build ... will post when finished

 :D

snakeman830

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 11:36:27 AM »
Psianimate Dead?  It's from Hyperconcious, but it's not a Necromancy spell.
Wouldn't that fall under equivalency?
Necromancy has no equivalent under the psionic disciplines.  Enchantment, Divination, and Conjuration do, but not Necromancy.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Felix Underwood

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Re: Thrallherd Handbook
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2010, 01:39:30 PM »
i am currently working on a fun Thrallherd build ... will post when finished

 :D
Correction:  all Thrallherd builds are fun...  :)


About using undead as thralls or believers:  This could very well boil down to a house rule for me, but in my games I don't allow thralls or believers to be made from folks that are immune to mind-affecting effects.

From the Thrallherd (Ex) description:  "A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. (snip)... They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants."

Also, the thrallherd's other class features included Charm and Dominate.

I treat the "hidden psychic resonance" like charm and dominate as well.

I know that's kind of a weak arguement, that's why I'll agree to call it a house rule... but I think disallowing undead as thralls or believers jives with RAI.