Author Topic: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization  (Read 6418 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« on: August 27, 2010, 12:37:08 PM »
This character concept is for the GitP Neverending Dungeon game. It's a solo dungeon crawl, with no social interaction whatsoever. Monsters are hard-hitting and rather optimized. Rest is allowed once per floor (happens slightly less often than a level-up), with no possibility to circumvent that (e.g., no Rope Tricks). Characters start at ECL1 with 2 traits and flaws, no LA templates, standard gestalt rules, no dragon magazine or homebrew, BoED/BoVD is out, everything else is in. Retraining is allowed.

There has been already a multitude of cheesy builds introduced into this dungeon - DMM Persist, Charnel Touch + TTS, Poison healing, Crusaders, etc. The concept I have in mind is a DW kobold Warlock // Bard using Dragonfire Inspiration, all the while hiding from enemies as a swift action via the Blend into Shadows cheese. IC/DFI is planned to be started at the beginning of the day, and maintained as free action all day throughout (not as critical later on, when I get more uses per day). He might get heard (unless DM allows to use some silent form of inspiration), but the Listen check to pinpoint him (10 for "people whispering" + 20 to pinpoint + range penalties) would be unreachable for CR1 opponents anyway. Later on plan to take Subsonics to alleviate that.

Would appreciate some help in planning this character for higher levels. Note: please don't concentrate on ECL20 power - the character has to be viable and survivable at all levels. Just to put things into perspective, only a handful of people have reached ECL6.

Also, I'd prefer to keep him as straight-classed as possible (excluding prestiges), just to differentiate myself from all the haphazard mixes of classes like Crusader 1/Warblade 2/Cleric 2 that some people have been introducing there... style points, if you wish.

Venerable Dragonborn (heart aspect) Dragonwrought (Battle dragon) Desert Kobold (yes, UA racial variants are in) Wyrm of War
Heart aspect is mainly for use against swarms, and later to entangle opponents.
Dragonfire Inspiration adds sonic damage, it was okay'd that Dragonwrought does qualify for DFI element substitution
Plan to take Loresong, Mimicking Song, and Healing Hymn as bard ACFs at 1st level, as Countersong, Fascinate, and Bardic Knowledge are useless in this dungeon.
32 pb distributed as +2 +8 +6 +3 +1 +8, giving stats of 6 16 16 14 10 19 after all adjustments (desert kobold, dragonborn & venerable)
Warlock1 // Bard1 Blend into Shadows (flaw), Dragonwrought (flaw), Dragonfire Inspiration (ECL1)
Warlock2 // Bard2
Warlock3 // Bard3 Melodic Casting (ECL3)
Warlock4 // Bard4 Entangling Exhalation (Wyrm of War)
Warlock5 // Bard5
Warlock6 // Bard6 Darkstalker (ECL6), Song of the Heart (ECS bard option instead of Suggestion - would've taken it at ECL3, but it requires Inspire Competence)
Warlock7 // Bard7
Warlock8 // Bard8 ??? (Wyrm of War)
Warlock9 // Bard9 Subsonics (ECL9), Haunting Melody (ECS bard option instead of Inspire Greatness)
Warlock10 // Virtuoso1
Warlock11 // Sublime Chord1
Warlock12 // Sublime Chord2 ??? (ECL12), ??? (Wyrm of War)

IC is going to be pumped via Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, and maybe even Vest of Legends, to a respectable +6d6 at level 9. Too bad BoED (and Words of Creation) is out.

I'm rather at loss what feats to take as Wyrm of War - it says that "He can select any fighter bonus feat, or any combat-related feat tied to draconic abilities (such as Wingover)." Entangling Exhalation is the only one that came to mind, any others that would be useful for this character, given that he's not into melee combat at all?

Also, is Dragonborn worth it? I'm gaining extra HP, and breath weapon, losing out on attack bonus (might not be too critical, as I'll always be hitting FF touch AC anyway) and on Hide/MS bonus (will pump these using items later) - would I be better off without it?

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2010, 12:42:03 PM »
Your build looks good, I'd just like to say...
I probably wouldn't have built a cha-based character, especially a bard, for a campaign with no social interaction, nor would I have built a party buffing character, especially a bard, for a campaign with no party.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2010, 01:02:38 PM »
IMHO - it's the only class that can augment warlock's EB without any restrictions (unlike rogue's sneak attack, for example), all the while opening the way for a caster path. At high levels (if we ever get to these, that is) neither rogue nor warlock would do, and I'd like to arrive there prepared. The fact that the same class also happens to shine as a support/interaction character is icing :)

I was actually torn between warlock and DFA, as both of them provide the Darkness invocation, but ended up choosing the warlock, as he gets more invocation, and has better CHA synergy. Plus, he gets Spiderwalk, and DFA would be left without any mobility enhancements at low levels (other than the wings aspect I'd take then, but it doesn't mature until ECL6)

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2010, 01:17:47 PM »
You can get a similar effect, without the charisma dependence.
 
rogue/fullBABclass.maybe.warblade//wizard/unseen.seer.or.other.SA.advancing.Prc  with a reserve feat like needles of force or acidic splatter, which are legal for SA and are almost as good as eldritch blast.

Walk through dungeon invisible.  Use darkstalker for any DM tricks to find you.  Use metamagic invisible spell Solid Fog for anything with see invis or true seeing.

Ignore monsters.  Collect treasure.

Yes, it is true that many things cannot be sneak attacked. No, there isn't any reason that you couldn't just blast them like everyone else blasts everything else.



If you're stuck on warlock, make sure you can craft wonderous item, and make yourself some EB boosting gear.  And consider putting two levels of paladin into your build.  Divine grace is pretty amazing in a cha based build, and the smite is pretty ok too.

You can eldritch theurge Sublime chord.  Consider that.

Quicken SLA is almost required.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2010, 01:42:17 PM »
As I said, the stress is on ECL1 survivability. Warlock gives me the Darkness Invocation, allowing me to hide at will, observed or not. Being a Rogue//Wizard, how will I hide in combat?

Also, Unseen Seer would not be allowed in gestalt, as it's a dual-advancing class (SA and spellcasting).

I can't ignore monsters, as then I wouldn't get any XP (none is given for bypassing them), and most likely won't get any treasure, either. All dungeon runs I've seen so far, were collecting loot from corpses.

Properly pumping IC and advancing EB, I'd be doing more dice of damage than my ECL all the time, doubt I could do that with reserve feats, as these are tied to the spell levels, which fall far behind class levels pretty quickly. Here's the planned damage progression for this build:

1 2d6 (EB + IC)
2 4d6 (adding Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost for +2 IC)
3 5d6 (+1 EB)
4
5 7d6 (+1 EB and Song of the Heart for +1 IC)
6
7 8d6 (+1 EB)
8 9d6 (+1 IC)
9 10d6 (+1 EB)

and that's not even counting Chasuble of Fell Power (+1d6, 8k) and Vest of Legends (+1 IC, don't remember the price, around 10k)

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2010, 02:06:46 PM »
ehh, the thing you have to worry about for the neverending dungeon is the DM giving pretty inconsistent rulings about what's legal (for example, you can DMM persist touch range spells for no real reason).

I'm pretty sure soverign archetypes aren't allowed, but not certain.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2010, 03:00:38 PM »
I've only seen Loredrake being banned, but not all archetypes in general. There's at least one active ECL2 character using the Wyrm of War archetype.

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 03:01:53 PM »
listen... I'm not trying to talk you out of this concept, and I really don't mean to be rude... but...

Having just gotten my books, out... You cannot spontaneously hide, even in darkness, while being observed, even casually observed.  So you could sneak into combat, but not during combat.  How would you use hide w/o warlock?  You could place a silent image in front of you and hide behind that or you could use obscuring mist, which actually functions better than darkness because it breaks line of sight, and those are just core options and only first level ones at that.

If you don't have sneak attack, what is the point of hiding?  You get one easy shot on them, and then they know where you are.  But even if they didn't, you're hitting at their touch with eldritch blast (enjoy your 7 damage), you don't need to hit their flat footed touch too.  It's not like the CR 2's are stacking ridic AC.
Is it for easy escaping?  If it is than obscuring mist is superior.

If you're seriously concerned about lasting power and ecl1 survivability, you should look into sorc/paladin (I know, still cha based), or monk//druid, or warblade//factotum.

The fact that, at some levels, your d6's in damage exceed your class level would be nice if you got iterative attacks, which it so happens you do not.  Reserve feats scale at basically the same rate if you're advancing sneak attack normally.  You are correct that SA does not always apply; however, there is no SR on sneak attack, and SR is a lot more common than SA immune.

All of that is moot though, because the mechanical abilities of full casters so greatly exceed those of the warlock and the bard, even combined, that you wouldn't miss the damage even if it were zero.

Advancing sneak attack is not theurging per se.  Debatable legality in my mind.



ok, back to your concept.
Improved initiate is always a good choice for a fighter feat, i believe you can use weapon focus touch attack.
I'm sure I'm missing something, but I've read the first level of Virtuoso like 5 times, and I honestly can't find a single useful ability for you in it.  There is little reason not to take it, but in my mind there is little reason not to take something else, if you weren't playing such a strange race, i'd say take some paragon levels.  Consider what's worth it for you.
You've precluded yourself from hellfire warlock, which isn't necessarily terrible, but if you built it like this, sans the fighter 1 if you like:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9071.20
then you'd have lots of spellcasting, still a d6 hit die, basically just as much EB damage (not until later levels), crazy spell access, crazy versitility, even more cha synergy, and you'd still have your beloved ability to darkness in combat for no reason.

Plus you could color spray fools, which is nice if you enjoy one-shotting encounters.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2010, 03:31:34 PM »
Guess I wasn't clear on the build details...

Spontaneous hide is gained from the Blend into Shadows feat (Drow of the Underdark, but the feat itself is not racially limited) - emphasis mine:

Quote
As a swift action, you can spend a use of your darkness spell-like ability to make a Hide check, even while being observed and without cover or concealment. You must be within to feet of an area of magical darkness.

Warlock or DFA are the only two classes that could grant me that spell-like ability... usable at will with no limits. :D

I can shoot, then use move action to move someplace else, and swift to hide. Rinse and repeat.

EDIT: Virtuoso is there to advance SC casting, without taking more SC levels. While SC is a nice prestige, it doesn't advance bardic music, while Virtuoso does (at least uses/day and IC, which is all I care about). First level of Virtuoso is taken before SC because Virtuoso is a 9/10 casting class (I can live with losing a bard CL, but not SC CL).
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 03:34:14 PM by redmane »

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 07:45:20 PM »
Ok, the only useful suggestion so far was Improved Initiative... but then again, just how useful is initiative for a sneaky character? If I always start encounters in hiding, does it really matter whether I go first? I think not.

So, any more ideas on improving this build, anyone? Please do take a moment to understand how it works, before bashing it, though...

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 08:48:23 PM »
If you get the surprise round, high init lets you go first and act twice.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

emaNsdrawkcaB

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 228
  • Unicorn Power!
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 03:07:34 PM »
I don't see why you wouldn't want to consider Sneak Attack in this build. With the constant HiPS active you could do it every round. I know it's Gestalt and dual progression prestige classes aren't allowed, but what about feats that let classes stack for certain benefits?

Scout 4/ Rogue 16 // Warlock 6 / Mindbender 1/ Warlock 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Warlock 8

Improved Skirmish, Flyby Attack, Mindsight, Blend Into Shadows, Darkstalker, Craven

9d6 + 20 SA
7d6 + (7 AC) Skirmish @ 20ft.
9d6 Eldritch Blast
6d6 Hellfire Blast
---------------------
31d6 + 20 with relative ease.



redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 06:43:11 PM »
Scout certainly wasn't an option, for one simple reason - you have to move before the attack, to take advantage of the skirmish damage, and that leaves me vulnerable to counterattack, as enemies will know my last position.

I did consider rogue levels, but it has three weak points, compared to the DFI cheese - first, sneak attack doesn't work on everyone (and this particular dungeon has plenty of undead, constructs, swarms, and the like); second, the extra damage would always be of the same type as the original damage (meaning that I'm always stuck with magical damage, unless I take certain blast essences) - on the other hand, extra damage from DFI is sonic, which I won't be able to get from Warlock at all; and third, rogue just doesn't offer anything beyond sneak attack at higher levels, while bard can become a full sorcerer-type caster later on. Another (minor) point against SA build would be that it's hard to pump higher at lower levels (save for taking feats for maneuvers/stances that grant it), while I could get an easy +2d6 to DFI at ECL2 from a 1500gp item and a 1st-level spell - and low-level damage output is more important here than ECL20 power.

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 06:52:15 PM »
Are you familiar with staggering strike?  If you don't like being full attacked, you should think about using it.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 10:48:29 AM »
Staggering strike is for melee attacks only. This character is solely based on ranged attacks. Thanks, but no thanks.

redmane

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 05:07:45 PM »
I don't see why you wouldn't want to consider Sneak Attack in this build. With the constant HiPS active you could do it every round. I know it's Gestalt and dual progression prestige classes aren't allowed, but what about feats that let classes stack for certain benefits?

Scout 4/ Rogue 16 // Warlock 6 / Mindbender 1/ Warlock 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Warlock 8

Improved Skirmish, Flyby Attack, Mindsight, Blend Into Shadows, Darkstalker, Craven

Upon inspecting the wording for scout's Skirmish, I realized that I don't have to move all my speed - the skirmish damage is triggered once he moves at least 10 feet (or 20, in case of Improved Skirmish - which, BTW, requires 5 levels of scout, not 4). Still, at lower levels, there's no access to Mobility or Flyby Attack just yet (Warlock won't get a fly speed until ECL6, same time as Dragonborn with wings aspect would), meaning that I still have to move first, and shoot after. A nice idea for later levels, if I ever decide to rebuild, but not viable at low levels, unfortunately.

What did you mean by "feats that let classes stack"? Is there anything out there that allows scout and rogue levels to stack for SA/skirmish?

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 05:51:30 PM »
Gnome Bards are fairly awesome in the L4-L6 range, though.  Alter Self (trog) + Weapon Finesse + Cat's Grace + casting in armor + Power Attacking (Rapier, Rapier, Rapier)...  I think I had like +12 to hit / +20 to damage and an AC of 32 the last time I played one (and had a claw/bite routine, too).

Doing Warlock Eldritch Glaive you might be able to boost that to true shenanigan level.

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 06:05:16 PM »
Swift ambusher.

emaNsdrawkcaB

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 228
  • Unicorn Power!
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 06:09:01 PM »
Swift Ambusher is like Swift Hunter, but for Rogues, not Rangers. I don't know how I forgot to mention it in my previous post. In any case this would be only truly optimal later on, as you'd likely want the Greater Invisibility (retrain/psyref Blend into Darkness) invocation too, I wasn't (and still aren't) sure of what the rules for whatever dungeon crawl you're attempting are.

idontmuchcareforit

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • Email
Re: Warlock//Bard gestalt - solo dungeon crawl optimization
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 06:31:10 PM »
Feats that let classes stack are definitely more abusive of gestalt than theurging.  I've never heard of anyone allowing them, but I guess it never hurts to ask.