Author Topic: How do you feel about Tome of Battle's maneuver and stance prerequisites?  (Read 7396 times)

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fuinjutsu

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I think that some of them are poorly done.  Emerald razor has no prereq but Sudden Leap does?  WHY?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Hallack

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I think that some of them are poorly done.  Emerald razor has no prereq but Sudden Leap does?  WHY?

Yep, it's stupid.  Several times I would have liked to have Hunter's Sense (stance) or Sudden leap but was loath to take one of the strikes that I did not want to get them.

That kind of crap forces people into Lion Totem barbarian when they otherwise wouldn't hehe.
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veekie

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it would have been okay if they'd just LISTED the NUMBER of prerequisites in the maneuver list. Now, I don't demand them from my players.
That'd have helped a lot, but they already rolled their nat 20s on their Craft(game mechanics) rolls for ToB already.
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Beltendu

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And Phaedrus, it's not necessarily stupid.  Just because casters, widely understood to be the most overpowered entities in the 3.5 universe, don't have a similar prereq is not an argument against the prereq for initiators ... :)
Yes it is, if you allow said casters to exist in the same game. And dropping these prepreqs doesn't actually noticeably add to the power of martial adepts, anyway. So this is a non-argument.
I could just as easily argue that not having similar restrictions on the casters is stupid.  The only reason casters have the benefit of the doubt is that they were there first, and are way more powerful even WITH that sort of restriction ... :)

Quote from: PhaedrusXY
Quote from: Beltendu
The additional complexity is a decent argument, though that's going to vary from person to person (I don't mind the complexity, personally)
Adding unnecessary complexity is stupid in any system, gaming or otherwise. Ever heard of Ockam's Razor? Now I realize that this is a game, and some people like fiddling with things to crank the most out of it, and so do I to an extent. But having to just jump through a bunch of completely meaningless hoops just to reach what should be a straight-forward goal (build a character with maneuver X) is not my idea of fun...
You're using Occam's Razor backwards, but I think I get your point ... :)  And I don't really agree that they're meaningless.  Perhaps from a power standpoint, but that's not necessarily the only reason for them being there.  I can't ask the devs, obviously, but as has been noted already, it could be that they wanted to force a certain focus on initiators.  Of course, they weren't that consistent about it (*cough*stonedragon*cough*), but it's possible.

Quote from: PhaedrusXY
Quote from: Beltendu
And it's not like you can't build initiators with access to a wide range of maneuvers anyway.  I pulled off an SS/Mo9 with high level access to all 9 disciplines, and there was a build in the ToB for Dummies (I think) that did the whole "true master of 9" thing to get the 9th level maneuver in all 9 disciplines.  
Yes, and it took you how long? Do you want to do that for an NPC that's going to live for exactly 1 encounter? I don't.
I don't recall exactly how long it took me to build that character (it started at level 19), but it wasn't that long.  Certainly no longer than picking spells for a caster.  I don't remember feeling like it was getting annoying, but that will of course be a personal thing.  And you're absolutely right about making NPCs.  But then, that's really not much different than making a caster NPC.  Yeah, the initiator would have the prereqs, but generally has way fewer maneuvers than a caster has spells, too.

Quote from: PhaedrusXY
I always figured the intention of the prerequisites was to create more differences between members of the same class, like disciplines for psions, domains for clerics, mantles for ardents, and specialization for wizards. 
If all choices for a maneuver of level X were equally useful, then that should happen naturally anyway. They should have focused on that, rather than adding something stupid to shoehorn people into picking useless crap.

Eh, if the CO boards are any indication, people would still cherry pick to their hearts content ... :)  Though it would of course be better if all the maneuvers were similarly useful at a given level.  And if the prereqs were more consistent (or nonexistent).

Honestly, I should probably just stop posting.  I'm putting out a lot of words in defense of something that I honestly don't care THAT much about ... :)  Apparently my brain decided this was a good post to debate about or something.  I guess I'm just surprised that so many people hate them so badly  They seem (to me, anyway) like a minor inconvenience at worst.

SorO_Lost

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What I absolutely hate is the retrain feature swapping about what you know forcing you to plan any ToB build level by level by level and each time you have to go back over every maneuver you know and have swapped to make sure you meet the prerequisites for the new on you plan to take.

I am way to lazy to do that initially and tend to work on retraining as I play to fill the who cares parts and ignore it with NPCs.
DMs have so much paper work it's not even funny, why make it worse?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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RobbyPants

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Beltendu, what do you think that prereqs add to the game?  What do you think that removing them takes away from the game?


Though it would of course be better if all the maneuvers were similarly useful at a given level. 
That's actually  my biggest complaint about the book, although, WotC has a habit of doing this in all of their books.
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Elemental mage test game

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It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Well... it does make people to focus on a style a little bit, instead of being a diamond mind master who also can use the best strike from one other style but nothing else. That being said, they're sort of nonsensical.

Here's my alternative:
Level 1 maneuvers: 0  of the same style.
Level 2-4 maneuvers: 1 of the same style
level 5-7 maneuvers: 2 of the same style
level 8-9 maneuvers: 3 of the same style.

Simple and done.

RobbyPants

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Well... it does make people to focus on a style a little bit, instead of being a diamond mind master who also can use the best strike from one other style but nothing else.
Barely.

Take a look at how you actually gain maneuvers.  A warblade is going to learn one every other level, and we can assume on his even levels, he'll swap something for another top level maneuver.  That means, without taking Martial Study, he can have, at best, two top level maneuvers.  If he spread himself across all five disciplines, one would be two levels lower than his highest level maneuver.  The only exception to this is after 18th level, when he has four levels of 17th level maneuvers.  Then, at 20th level, he could have each of the five capstones.  At 20th level.

A swordsage gains them at double the rate and swaps at the same.  So, at any given level, they're capped at three maneuvers of the highest level.  So, if they split themselves among all six disciplines, three would have to be one level lower than the highest level available.  At 20th level, he could have all six capstones.  Again: at 20th level.


So, I don't really see the problem.  It's not like it's the prereqs keeping a 10th level warblade from running around with 8 5th level maneuvers.  It's their maneuvers known progression combined with their Initiator Level.  I'm fine with those two prereqs.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 04:29:35 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]


archangel.arcanis

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I'm of the same mind set as many here. If spell casters don't need it why should we put it on some one who has weaker abilities (I'm looking at you too Astral Construct nerf)
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

veekie

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Regarding the prereqs, I think they had the right idea to start with(specialising within a school), but wrong implementation(clunky prereqs) and bad presentation(no way of seeing summed prereqs).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

archangel.arcanis

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Regarding the prereqs, I think they had the right idea to start with(specialising within a school), but wrong implementation(clunky prereqs) and bad presentation(no way of seeing summed prereqs).
Would you have preferred something along the lines of reducing the Man. Known and giving class features that added within one school? Thus at 1st level you pick a specialization and gain bonus man. as you level that must be from that school.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Beltendu

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My answer was going to be about the same as Senevri's (but I went to lunch before I saw your question ... :) ), though I agree that it doesn't do the "focusing" thing well enough to be worth it in its current incarnation.  I do think that if all the maneuvers of a given level were roughly equal in value and the prereqs were consistent, then it might be worth it.

Basically, I like the idea in theory (because having a mechanical focusing effect lets you then have a class like Mo9 specifically to get you a trade off that lets you broaden your horizons), but it's execution could be better.  Kinda like the Rainbow Warsnake (though obviously not the zero to hero effect of the warsnake ... :) )  If people want to remove them, more power to them.  Not like I could stop them even if I wanted to ... :) But I also don't think it's so bad that it warrants comments like "How the hell is this any less stupid?".  I think that if we're going to get worked up about D&D, then there are bigger fish to fry ... :)

And on archangel.arcanis' comment regarding casters not needing it - I think you could argue that they need SOMETHING to pull them back a little, and a similar focusing effect could be the way to do it.  There was a good sized thread on here somewhere about doing just that, actually, turning the full casters into a bunch of niche casters like the beguiler/warmage/DN in order to back them down to tier 2/3 instead of tier 1.  Unless of course your goal is to bring everyone else up to tier 1, in which case you'd need to do a LOT more than just rip the prereqs off the maneuvers ... :)

archangel.arcanis

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I'm fully aware of the thread, I'm actually working with Robby on some of those re-writes, but we were talking about in a general case rather than a heavily home brewed game. If you are allowing casters as is into the game there is no reason to force the requirements on initiators. This is just a quick and dirty fix for the confusion that is caused by the requirement that really don't add to the game.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

veekie

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Hmm, thinking something more like reducing overall maneuvers know by a small amount, but giving out the 'upgrade' manuevers for free. Like Mithril Tornado automatically giving you Adamantine when you reach that ML(not replacing, but adding. this way you can ready both).

Possibly having some maneuvers grant bonuses when you have other maneuvers of the same school readied.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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I think discipline specialization would be more worth it (and worth protecting) if the disciplines were seriously different.  Don't get me wrong: each discipline has some little gimick to call its own, but there's still a lot of overlap.  Think about how many strikes are the equivalent of: you <roll a skill check> and do <something cool> and do some extra damage.  It's basically the same thing that happened to spells once you throw in all the splat books.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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To sum it up more cowbell dice.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Maat_Mons

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Regarding the prereqs, I think they had the right idea to start with(specialising within a school), but wrong implementation(clunky prereqs) and bad presentation(no way of seeing summed prereqs).
Would you have preferred something along the lines of reducing the Man. Known and giving class features that added within one school? Thus at 1st level you pick a specialization and gain bonus man. as you level that must be from that school.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 05:47:59 PM by Maat_Mons »


Beltendu

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I'm fully aware of the thread, I'm actually working with Robby on some of those re-writes, but we were talking about in a general case rather than a heavily home brewed game. If you are allowing casters as is into the game there is no reason to force the requirements on initiators. This is just a quick and dirty fix for the confusion that is caused by the requirement that really don't add to the game.

My point was that whether or not the casters have the restriction has no real bearing (in my mind) on whether the initiators should have it or not.  It strikes me as a red herring, but that's just my opinion ... :)  Price of tea in China and all that ... :)

As for the direct arguments, the points have been basically (and if I missed any, please let me know):  a) it doesn't appreciably increase the power of the initiators, and b) it significantly reduces the complexity of picking maneuvers.  Under those assumptions, it would make sense to house rule away the restriction.  You make life easier for no gain in power.

For me, I agree with point a, but I disagree with point b.  So from my point of view you'd end up making a house rule for what I find to be no appreciable effect.  Why bother with house rules that have no effect?  Of course, that is going to vary amongst players, since obviously some people DO think the restriction is a pain in the ass ... :)

And is anyone else having issues with the website today?  I keep getting database errors.