Author Topic: Help with strangely structured Gestalt  (Read 4567 times)

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Zebu

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Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« on: August 21, 2010, 03:30:24 PM »
So here's the deal.  I've recently started a new game where the GM uses a kind of semi-random character creation process.  My goal is to build a reasonably optimized character using the following guidelines:

Race: Orc (but without the -2 to Charisma and the light sensitivity)
Class: Fighter/Warlock (for first level) (Cannot use Eldritch Glaive)
Alignment: Lawful Evil (the party is about 60% evil overall)
Books: Kind've an odd one-- he's using the Pathfinder rules, but with heavy D&D 3.5 imports (like the Warlock class, for starters).  If you just want to give advice on optimizing a D&D 3.5 fighter/warlock, it'll be most welcome.  So pretty much any 3.5 book you want to use will be fair game, though he's "examining imported feats closely."
Level: Starting at level 2 with normal starting wealth.

House rules:
No Eldritch Glaive
Warlocks can use Draconic Invocations (from Dragon Magic) if they have the dragonblood subtype or similar.

To make it more interesting, I've never actually played a Warlock before.  So while you're posting here, I'll be off reading over the compilations on this forum (I'm posting this in advance because last time I was here, none covered gestalting).  Let's do this!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 01:54:13 AM by Zebu »

Zaxter

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 04:54:48 PM »
So, what exactly do you need help with? Feats? Equipment? Invocations? Future levels? Also, you pointed out that your class is "Fighter/Warlock (for first level)," but you're starting at level 2. Does that mean you haven't decided if you're sticking with those for level 2?

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 06:26:55 PM »
The short answer: Yes.

The long answer-- everything that'd go on a character sheet.  Feats, equipment, invocations-- heck, I didn't even know what an invocation <i>was</i> three days ago.  Advice on how to develop it long-term would be good; I'm thinking Duelist and the first few levels of Warshaper would make for a solid set of prestige classes.

As for the "for first level"-- That first level is mandatory.  I wasn't sure whether it'd be better to just treat the first level of fighter as a dip and go from there or what.  Now I think I'd like to develop both classes-- warlocks get some really great self-buffs.

TheEndIsNear

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 06:35:09 PM »
Ive always wanted warlock 20/Monk X FTG X Classes X to make DBZ characters.

try it?

idontmuchcareforit

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 10:58:57 AM »
Step one: beg him to change his mind about eldritch glaive.

Without eldritch glaive, fighters and warlocks have nothing in common.  The .25BAB/lvl is basically the only benefit to the warlock side.
If I had to make a suggestion... i guess maybe put that first level fighter feat into imp. initiative, and take a few levels of sorcerer or wizard on the fighter side and keep warlock on the other side, and then go eldritch theurge on the warlock side and go back to some melee class and make a do everything, never run out of gas gish.

fighter1/sorcerer4/paladin5/???5/Sorcerer5//warlock5/eldritch theurge10/warlock6-10
dex=cha=con>int>str>wis

I'm sorta playing "Hide the Turkey", trying not to let anyone notice there's fighter still in there...  It's not as good as it could have been, but it should perform well in basically any situation.  It's a little lacking in the stealth area, but that could be augmented with spells.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 11:13:02 AM by idontmuchcareforit »

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 07:52:58 PM »
Thanks much!  I asked him again about eldritch glaive at the last session, but he said that if he allowed it, I'd out-DPS the entire party.  He also told me (unasked) that anything that reduced Con damage by 1 would prevent the Hellfire Warlock bonus.  So my general impression is that he's somewhat afraid of Warlock power.

That said, your build looks pretty interesting, especially since no one in the party rolled an arcane caster.  Any advice on spells/feats/invocations?  I definitely like Baleful Utterance; it has to be the most amazing at-will power I've ever seen.  I mean, the Dark invocations and such are stronger, but its sheer versatility (and the fact that it comes at first level) amazes me.
Also, we rolled for stats.  My array is-- 18, 15, 15, 14, 11, 14.

Also...  Why the Paladin levels?
EDIT: It occurs to me that you might be looking for something as 'filler'in that area.  My GM has ruled that a warlock with the dragonblood subtype, such as from the Dragontouched feat, can use Draconic invocations.  So perhaps a few levels of Warshaper could go in that slot?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:02:37 PM by Zebu »

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 01:27:57 AM »
Well, paladin and sorcerer mix decently well, since both are Charisma-dependent. Paladins still get full BaB, which is nice for pumping your touch attacks.

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 01:53:09 AM »
Ah, dang.  I just realized-- this character has to be Lawful Evil, which precludes Paladin.  I suppose I could try being very, very Good for a while, but I'd like to have a contingency plan if that doesn't work.  Advice?

Also, I'm thinking of taking Draconic as my sorcerer lineage.  Then I could take Dragon Disciple for a bit-- I could pair its non-spellcasting levels with levels of Eldritch Theurge so that I don't lose Sorcerer casting levels.  What do people think of that?

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 02:02:48 AM »
Paladin of Tyranny variant not working out for you?
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Havok4

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 02:21:21 AM »
How does the DM view the vestige that heals ability damage at a point a round when combined with hellfire warlock?

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 02:35:13 AM »
@Havok:
The word is--
"using incarnate/strongheart vest to negate the con damage from hellfire blast would negate the use of the ability.  If you're immune to the damage (and it's only one point of con damage per use), it doesn't have a cost. And all for a feat. That's a pretty minimal investment for a fairly powerful ability.  The other way to do it- taking a level in binder and binding naberius to heal the damage a round later- has a much higher cost and doesn't ignore the rules as intended."

@Mad_Linguist:
This is a Pathfinder game, so I'd only looked up Paladin in the Pathfinder core book (where they don't have any variants).  I'd never heard of Tyranny before...  I'll have to ask him if he'll allow the import.  Hopefully with all of the cool stuff Lawful Good Paladins get in Pathfinder.

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 02:38:57 AM »
Reduce not negate, get your wording right.  :P
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Havok4

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 02:50:10 AM »
A level of binder is not a bad investment in a character like this. I would recommend it if you plan on using any kind of social skills.

Echoes

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 03:26:08 AM »
@Havok:
The word is--
"using incarnate/strongheart vest to negate the con damage from hellfire blast would negate the use of the ability.  If you're immune to the damage (and it's only one point of con damage per use), it doesn't have a cost. And all for a feat. That's a pretty minimal investment for a fairly powerful ability.  The other way to do it- taking a level in binder and binding naberius to heal the damage a round later- has a much higher cost and doesn't ignore the rules as intended."

Bah, it was fine up until here. I'm cool with DMs ruling against things in favor of balance (although in this case it isn't unbalanced to do 17d6 per round at 20th), but then he had to toss in the RAI/fluff argument, which is stupid. Using strongheart vest to fuel your hellfire blast is totally flavorful because you're fueling your eldritch powers with the souls of unborn children. That's right, everytime you fire off a hellfire blast, unborn baby Jesus cries.

Anyway, sorry about that, rant over. Just ... gah, I remember so many arguments over on 339 over that, all of which boiled down to uncreative fluff reasons.
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idontmuchcareforit

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 09:52:12 AM »
Quote
Thanks much!  I asked him again about eldritch glaive at the last session, but he said that if he allowed it, I'd out-DPS the entire party.  He also told me (unasked) that anything that reduced Con damage by 1 would prevent the Hellfire Warlock bonus.  So my general impression is that he's somewhat afraid of Warlock power.
lol.
warlock damage scales not even as fast as the Tier 4 rogue SA, plus the rogue gets to twf and apply weapon damage, strength and crit.
You have a horrible party if the warlock is lead DPS.
And even if you were doing bs damage, you're still stuck in melee with basically no armor and almost no hit points.
People don't play glaive-locks to be overpowered, people play glaivelocks because they're fun to play

Quote
That said, your build looks pretty interesting, especially since no one in the party rolled an arcane caster.  Any advice on spells/feats/invocations?  I definitely like Baleful Utterance; it has to be the most amazing at-will power I've ever seen.  I mean, the Dark invocations and such are stronger, but its sheer versatility (and the fact that it comes at first level) amazes me.
Also, we rolled for stats.  My array is-- 18, 15, 15, 14, 11, 14.

Also...  Why the Paladin levels?
EDIT: It occurs to me that you might be looking for something as 'filler'in that area.  My GM has ruled that a warlock with the dragonblood subtype, such as from the Dragontouched feat, can use Draconic invocations.  So perhaps a few levels of Warshaper could go in that slot?

I've never actually played a sorcerer, but I've played a few wizards.  Most of the things I do for wizards involves spontaneously rememorizing spells or making use of contingency.  The first is obviously a non issue for sorc's, and the second is rather difficult for sorcs to do at all.
barring those things, I really like energy sub and born of 3 thunders, especially with freezing fog or blistering radience.  If i was a sorc, that'd be my bread and butter.  Travel devotion might be a good choice, given that you can fuel it well, and the fact that you can fly nonstop makes that kind of mobility even more frustrating to enemy monsters.

I think you can technically use divine metamagic, gotta check though.  Yep, it seems RAW you can.  I'd use quicken spell.  Even if you're limited to 1 nightstick, if you have a big pile of cha, a reliquary holy symbol, extra turning, and 1 nightstick, you should be able to spont. quicken 3 spells/day.  This requires metamagic specialist in lieu of a familiar.

Paladin is certainly not filler.  It carries the fighter flavor of brave melee combat and zeal, but it comes with the best class feature ever: divine grace, which stacks with devils own luck btw.  D10 hit die, a nice aura and a cool mount to boot.  Paladin might not be the greatest class on it's own, but it is pro for gestalt opposite a sorc.  And for zero MAD it's hard to turn down.

for stats i'd go:
str 11
dex 15
con 15
wis 14
int 14
cha 18

For spells I'd look for solid debuffs to use with eldritch theurge, this fits the warlock flavor anyway.
[edit] assay spell resistance goes without saying.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 12:06:50 PM by idontmuchcareforit »

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 04:17:58 PM »
Hmmm...  If a Warlock takes Battle Caster and buys some Mithril full plate, wouldn't they be in melee with full armor?  Still basically no hitpoints, though.


Born of Three Thunders looks like a cool effect, but it dazes you and takes two feats to pull off.  I suppose if I flew near a group of enemy archers/casters with low fortitude saves and set it off, maybe...

The version of Divine Metamagic that I'm looking at says you apply it to "divine spells you know."  So wouldn't that be only the Paladin spells that I could quicken, then?

I do like Divine Grace, and the general Charisma synergy of all these classes.  The Paladin mount seems a bit underwhelming, though, especially given all the different ways to fly that a sorcerer/warlock has.  I'm almost tempted to take the weapon boost, instead.  Though I wouldn't exactly be using a weapon either.  Is there a reason why you stop Paladin at level 5?

I've just gotten a +1 to one of my stats.  Should I put it into Dexterity to bump the modifier up by one, or should I keep boosting charisma?

Zebu

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 10:29:50 PM »
Well, bugger.  I just got done talking with the DM, and apparently any class that advances two classes, like Eldritch Theurge, is off-limits.  Any other ideas?

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 01:57:23 AM »
Urpriest is always good fun  and would let you get decent divine casting in addition to your warlock invocations.

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 09:58:43 AM »
ugh...

your DM has no interest in the two sides of your gestalt being useful at the same time.  This will be difficult to work around.

ok, this is my suggestion.

fighter1/rogue4/assassin4/rogue5-7/assassin5-9/rogue8-11//warlock9/hellfire warlock3/warlock10-17
Name your character kaboom, and just kaboom everything. 11d6 sneak attack, 14d6 eldritch blast, so 25d6 eldritch blast whilst invisible, and it can be a death attack. You're stuck with 3/4 BAB, therefore 3 attacks, means 75d6 damage/ round averaging 262.5 damage.

Ninja is probably just as good here, considering your stats.

This is consistant, even if your monster can see your invisible self, there are myriad ways to overcome this.  Darkness him, chilling tentacle grapple him, find a way to blind him, hide in plain sight.  Between the assassin spell list, and the warlock invocations, you should be pretty resourceful.  

I don't know anything about MoI, but losing 1d6damage (10 damage/round) seems more than worth it for con healing.  3con/round is way too much to lose.

Regardless, there probably aren't very many things that can withstand 250 damage/round for more than 2 rounds, so I'm sure your party will love you.

Spell resistance will be a MAJOR issue for you, vitriolic blast every time if you must.

As far as I can tell this is the only way to really boost your effectiveness.  Anything else that you could take would give you more options, but not anything else.  You could cast a spell or eldritch blast them, but you could not do both.  You could take a swing at them or use an invocation, but not both.  This build allows you to blast them and sneak attack them, and the limited spell lists of assassin and warlock can be arranged such that they would not overlap.  Enjoy.

So before, when your DM said that you'd out-dps the party, it seems that he was only seeing half of the damage potential here.  Show him this, ask him to change his mind about eldritch glaive so that you don't have to kaboom him.


Quote
The version of Divine Metamagic that I'm looking at says you apply it to "divine spells you know."  So wouldn't that be only the Paladin spells that I could quicken, then?
from complete divine
Quote
   Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic
 feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free
 action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking
 undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that
 you know.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:11:55 AM by idontmuchcareforit »

veekie

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Re: Help with strangely structured Gestalt
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 10:08:25 AM »
Quote
You're stuck with 3/4 BAB, therefore 3 attacks, means 75d6 damage/ round averaging 262.5 damage.
Only does that many attacks with Eldritch Glaive though, which I think is out.
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