Author Topic: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign  (Read 4982 times)

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fuinjutsu

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 05:37:15 PM »
Sorry, I'm not buying that errata.  A link would be appreciated.  

So be a Neraphim Wizard / Sorcerer / Archivist / Factotum and polymorph into an Arrow Demon.  Presto!  Four arms and you can wield 2 bows better than a Thri-keen could ever dream of.
Polymorph isn't allowed.
So be a Psion/Ardent/Mantled Psychic Warrior and use Metamorphosis.  But then your DM would argue that Psionics, like ToB, is overpowered. [sarcasm]
Actually yes he does. Polymorph, ToB, Metamorphosis, and Wild Shape are all considered overpowered, and aren't allowed unless we agree to the Pathfinder variant for Polymorph and Wild Shape. Metamorphosis isn't in PF, but would be treated the same way.

And I found what I was looking for.

Rich Baker suggested after publishing the book what to do in 3.5. Namely no recharge in battle, and crusaders have readied maneuvers the same as the other two.

General: No recharge mechanic. You use up all of your readied maneuvers in an encounter, that's it, you wait until next encounter. This one was suggested by Rich Baker himself, stating that the recharge mechanic in retrospect seems like a clunky add on, and it undermines resource management.

Crusaders: Your readied maneuvers are no different than anyone else's. No "two maneuvers randomly chosen" to start. Again, this one was suggested by Rich Baker, who said that this was the "automatic recharge" mechanic for the crusader, and it turned out to make the class more complicated than it needs to be.

Warblade: Hit dice move back down to d10. These guys are suppose to be technique fighters, and while they are front line warriors, there is no need for them to be the damage sponges that barbarians and knights are, because its not really their purpose.

Cut out Weapon Aptitude as an ability. Not only does this not make much sense, but it intentionally steals the fighters only real exclusive ability, and then makes it better. If Warblades are suppose to replace fighters in your campaign, fine, but if they both exist, let the fighter have his moment in the sun and cut this out of the Warblade.

It was in this message. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6741.msg220504#msg220504

except all of that is utter BS.  

Fighters can't shine, because the system doesn't let them.  Balancing any class against the fighter is as stupid as balancing a class against the commoner.

HD size has very little do with with how well you sponge damage.  Incarnate is a better damage sponge than a Knight or Warblade (arguably, incarnate is the best damage sponge, period) and it has a d6 hitdie.

Ugh, this is why I like MOI and XPH.  At least the writers there had a basic understanding of D&D 3.5 mechanics.  The fastest way to improve the balance of D&D with one rule is to pretend that the core classes, minus the bard, don't exist.

EDIT: pretty sure you need scout 3 to take swift hunter.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 05:46:16 PM by fuinjutsu »
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

kevin_video

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2010, 06:06:12 PM »
Feats he considered...

1 Deflect Arrows (thri-kreen)
2 Improved Toughness
3 Improved Skirmish
4 Swift Hunter
5 Quick Draw
6 Extra Rage
Don't need Deflect Arrows, got rid of Quick Draw and Improved Toughness. Replaced them with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Improved Favored Enemy since we know what we're facing off against on a regular basis.

Still have one spot left, and I'm considering not putting Extra Rage in there. With a DEX mod +7 it might be a good idea for Combat Reflexes, but it got used so little last campaign. Although he did want that Extra Rage. I think I'll leave that one for him. It's only one feat.

Although, originally he was debating on Soulknife. Would Hidden Talent be worth it? He'd be a 9th manifester. Maybe Offensive Prescience?
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snakeman830

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2010, 06:33:47 PM »
I still have yet to actually read the original "eratta" BS.  The link you posted took me to...another of your posts.  The link there took me to...an online store page for a Mutants & Masterminds book with DC superheroes on the front.

I've been searching the boards linked to that store and the closest I can find is a "quote" with that exact information.  Now, the quote doesn't link anywhere, nor does it credit anyone (other than "saved blog post") in its tag.

So, until you can find an actual link, I'll treat this as some BS your DM or some other idiot made up.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Ithamar

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2010, 06:34:59 PM »
Favored Power Attack >>> Imp. Favored Enemy

Double power attack damage vs. +3 damage:  Which one sounds better to you? ;)
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kevin_video

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 06:39:53 PM »
I still have yet to actually read the original "eratta" BS.  The link you posted took me to...another of your posts.  The link there took me to...an online store page for a Mutants & Masterminds book with DC superheroes on the front.

I've been searching the boards linked to that store and the closest I can find is a "quote" with that exact information.  Now, the quote doesn't link anywhere, nor does it credit anyone (other than "saved blog post") in its tag.

So, until you can find an actual link, I'll treat this as some BS your DM or some other idiot made up.
The link is old, and takes you to archives. I've searched the archives, but the post was old, and taken off. The problem with PF forums is that they can only hold so many topics before they're removed.

If you don't want to believe what I found, that's up to you. I was the one who originally found it and brought it here. Both of my DMs know of it, but only after I told the second one about it after he started whining that ToB was too powerful and he shouldn't have allowed it in the first place.

If you can, get a hold of Rich Baker. He's the one that was contacted about it. Much like Mike Mearls on the updated Hexblade. (I PMed Richard myself about it. I'm just waiting on an answer.)

Favored Power Attack >>> Imp. Favored Enemy

Double power attack damage vs. +3 damage:  Which one sounds better to you? ;)
Could always take both. The Improved basically covered whether he was using bows or melee.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 06:53:47 PM by kevin_video »
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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 06:52:56 PM »
For Bows, I like the Hunting enhancement from MIC.  Gives you +4 damage vs. Favoured Enemies.
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kevin_video

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 06:54:29 PM »
For Bows, I like the Hunting enhancement from MIC.  Gives you +4 damage vs. Favoured Enemies.
I like that as well. I don't remember if Collision adds to bows though. Although, that's a +2 by comparison.
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Ithamar

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2010, 06:57:08 PM »
Yes, collision works for bows.
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strider24seven

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2010, 12:00:00 AM »
Favored Power Attack >>> Imp. Favored Enemy

Double power attack damage vs. +3 damage:  Which one sounds better to you? ;)

Especially when you factor in Leap Attack.  With the Tri-Kreen's +30 racial to Jump. :P

kevin_video

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2010, 02:34:29 AM »
After taking to Gawain, I'm taking out Power Attack completely for other feats that'll benefit the thri-kreen. Hopefully this will become a worthwhile character.
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Suzerain

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2010, 11:31:06 AM »
And I found what I was looking for.

Rich Baker suggested after publishing the book what to do in 3.5. Namely no recharge in battle, and crusaders have readied maneuvers the same as the other two.

[...]

It was in this message. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6741.msg220504#msg220504

Okay, I saw your efforts to try and track the origin down on wotc's boards last month. And prompted by this thread, I read through ToB-related threads in the Paizo conversion forums.

This is what I found:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/conversions/archives/theCatGoddessEasiestTomeOfBattleAdaptionEver&page=2#75
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/conversions/archives/theCatGoddessEasiestTomeOfBattleAdaptionEver&page=2#77

And because the Paizo forums seem to be a piece of shit, I'm going to fullquote.

Quote from: A Man In Black

Quote from: KnightErrantJR
If you question something, its perfectly acceptable to ask for a source, but accusing someone of making "BS" up is in bad form, especially when Rich Baker, in a podcast discussing the development of 4th edition, actually did say that the maneuver recovery system was clunky and they didn't do enough work on it, and if he had it to do over again, they would have gotten rid of it, and even advised players using the rules to try the system without maneuver recovery.


If you want to call BS on me too, feel free. When I get some free time I might try to find out which podcast it was, but it was one of the D&D podcasts after the Gen Con 2007 announcement and before the actual roll out of the game, around the time that they were releasing the "preview 4E rules in your 3.5 game" articles.

In this case, he was talking about a number of clunky systems they used in the development of 4e, based on the TOB rules, and stated that to get an idea of how 4e was going to work, try looking at the TOB rules and removing maneuver recovery.

That's a far sight different.

Quote from: A Man In Black

Quote from: KnightErrantJR
Maybe, then, instead of calling BS on someone and lambasting them for making things up, you could simply say that you don't think you agree with their interpretation of what someone said. Your comment made it sound as if the entire comment that was being cited was non existent.

Go back and listen to the podcast. (Near as I can tell, it's unlinkable because of the stupid new setup of the WotC site.) It'd take willful misinterpretation to construe it to mean what Dissinger said, and moreover it says nothing about the other things he attributed to "the guy who wrote Tome of Battle". -edit- And it's Rob Heinsoo talking, not Mike Mearls or Richard Baker. (Mearls and Baker worked on TOB, Rob Heinsoo did not.)

Now, if you're sick of people trying to "win threads," why are you jumping into a discussion of the game impact of fiddling with the maneuver recovery to complain about how someone responded to a vague appeal to authority?


This is far more in line with what has been established about ToB. I'm going to join in and call BS on these "errata".

Aliment

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Re: Thri-Kreen for Epic Level Campaign
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2010, 12:09:24 PM »
I can kinda see what they mean with the Warblade and Crusader, but Swordsage is perfectly balanced when it comes to recovery.  And the Warblade is not a damage soak because of d12 HD, its because of Wall of Blades allows him to just block attacks.  Crusader is the real damage soak, but he has so few class features, that he kinda needs all those manuevers.

And then I realized that the Fighter has almost no class features.  Which would explain why people think that "+100 damage on a standard strike" at level 17 is broken.  Because only casters should be allowed to do anything nice with standard actions (51d6 damage on an empowered disintegrate).
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