Author Topic: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?  (Read 6220 times)

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Benly

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 09:53:02 AM »
Two main reasons come to mind for me.

First, as noted it is really hard to mess up building a ToB character. The scaling in performance by degree of optimization is very different between ToB classes and most other classes: low-end or middle-end ToB performance is much closer to top-end ToB performance than for non-ToB characters. This means that even for players who aren't completely terrible but are solidly middle-of-the-road players, ToB classes will be considerably stronger than other classes. It's at the high end of optimization that we go "oh, come on, compared to Planar Shepherd? This stuff is piddling, not overpowered." Most players haven't even heard of the PrCs, spells and feats that even a somewhat-casual optimizer will consider "standard" in character building.

The second... well, it really is the flavor. I love the mechanics and hate the flavor with psionics, too (in my personal houserules, the psion is narratively a variant of the sorcerer unless I'm playing Dark Sun or something.) Most of the crusader and warblade stuff is okay once you get used to them, but the swordsage, Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and to a lesser degree Tiger Claw all get into Wacky Fighting-Anime Territory. I like a good fighting manga (rare as those are) as much as the next fellow, but it's not a fit with the "standard" D&D campaign aesthetic.

Also, pretend you're someone who doesn't already know and like the ToB material, someone encountering the book for the first time. Say "Ruby Knight Vindicator" out loud and see how it sounds to your pretend self. It sounds like something a fourteen-year-old makes up to make his AWEXOME character sound SO AWEXOME. I seriously think that if ToB had better names for about half the material in it, it would go over much better with people.

Solo

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2010, 09:59:30 AM »
Quote
I like a good fighting manga (rare as those are) as much as the next fellow, but it's not a fit with the "standard" D&D campaign aesthetic.

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Senevri

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2010, 11:02:41 AM »
Curiously, I find 'Ruby Knight' sounds just fine.

I think it's a fair cop to, say, disallow ToB for the first six levels, if the DM wants to keep the nitty-gritty.

Then, the sorcerers start flying and adamantite-wielding barbarians go through stone walls, so the DM really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I've tried a low-level (oriental-theme) pure ToB campaign - I even gave triple HP to the players, as I didn't have a full party, and with a Swordsage and a Warblade, I discovered the game was really, absolutely NO DIFFERENT from if I'd had a Rogue and a Fighter - although the 'Rogue' was definitely better in combat than an actual rogue would've been. But, there was stealth, there was climbing, there was rather ordinary swinging of swords - the Swordsage did have some Desert Wind, but it IS the mystic class, and you'd get pyrokinetics if you'd had a wizard in the game, too.

It was also the very only game I've ever seen anyone getting bull rushed, ever. Thank you, Charging Minotaur. It was beautiful.

veekie

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2010, 03:18:30 PM »
^^
Hardly any need to disallow it even for the first couple levels, 
Iron Heart, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are techniques very similar to what regular fighters use thematically(hit harder, hit accurately, hit more often), while Setting Sun is basically Judo.
White Raven and Stone Dragon is a little more iffy, no blatantly mystical effects, but a bunch of stuff that regular fighter types don't see much.
Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are more blatantly mystical, so I can see a pass on those.

Some of the PrC names are somewhat cornier than usual, granted. But then Green Star Adept, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and the Black Flame Zealot,  tend towards the same ways too.
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kurashu

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 04:04:55 PM »
I love Tome of Battle, I had to sell my players on it though. All it took was me re-writing the battle of The Sunless Citadel with Sir Bradford as a Crusader to show them. After that I got questions of "What the hell was he?" "What was he doing?" "Can I do that?"

Since then there has been at least one martial character in each of my games. And we've used all three of them. No one got high enough level to take the PrCs and none of players are what I would call optimizers (though, the other night during characters creation one did say "I get Dodge? As a bonus feat?") so I haven't dealt with a Cleric/Crusader/RKV pimping the action economy.

My old DM didn't like it because he didn't want fighters using magic. I then made a gish in his game just to annoy him. So there's that.

Senevri

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 04:20:12 PM »
That's an awesome anecdote. My favorite NPC usage of ToB thus far was giving a White Dragon Swordsage Maneuvers instead of caster level & spells. Technically made him weaker, but fire immunity, riposte ETC. made for a fun battle.

Benly

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 11:57:58 PM »
Curiously, I find 'Ruby Knight' sounds just fine.

Ruby Knight is fine. Phoenix Mage is fine. Ruby Knight Vindicator and Jade Phoenix Mage are both kind of overblown in a fourteen-year-old kind of way. Also Shadow Sun Ninja - does anyone out there remember World of Synnibarr's Midnight Sunstone Bazooka?

As far as introducing it to a campaign, I was running a modified game of Return to Temple of Elemental Evil with more distinction between the elemental sub-cults, so I gave each of the four cults a non-core class or mechanic to use as their signature. The fire cult had assassins who used Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, and in that context it worked pretty well, but they were also explicitly deriving their abilities from a mystical source.

dna1

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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2010, 05:23:00 AM »
I would say its fine to bring in a warblade, as long as there isnt a person playing a fighter with no min/max prowess at all.  that happened in a game i was playing in, and everyone(cept me, the druid) hated the warblade for being overpowered(comparing him to our only fighter). and our fighter quit, then our dm quit because as a chain reaction.

i think its nice because it takes away the boring role of a melee character. but i know people who hate it because its harder to make a character, and they end up feeling somewhat like casters.
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Re: Why do people dislike the Tome of Battle?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2010, 11:06:12 AM »
If they play a warblade, there's nothing to keep track of. No shuffling cards, no huge selection. Pick your preferred five abilities, and go with it.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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