Author Topic: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...  (Read 6853 times)

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weenog

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 12:09:23 AM »
Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit?  A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking.  Waste of feats to double up like that.

It's actually two separate opportunities.  Robilar's Gambit provokes when your opponent declares an attack.  You slap him/her/it.  Karmic Strike provokes when they hit you.  You slap him/her/it again.  So you get one attack if they miss, two if they hit.  

No, it's not.  It's one opportunity, they make a melee attack against you, with one provoking condition having the additional qualifier that the attack has to connect.  Oh, and neither one of them comes before the attack that triggered them, unlike normal AoOs, errata fixed that.
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strider24seven

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2010, 12:13:38 AM »
Why in Godzilla's name would you have both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit?  A single opportunity only provokes a single AoO no matter how many conditions it meets for provoking.  Waste of feats to double up like that.

It's actually two separate opportunities.  Robilar's Gambit provokes when your opponent declares an attack.  You slap him/her/it.  Karmic Strike provokes when they hit you.  You slap him/her/it again.  So you get one attack if they miss, two if they hit.  

No, it's not.  It's one opportunity, they make a melee attack against you, with one provoking condition having the additional qualifier that the attack has to connect.  Oh, and neither one of them comes before the attack that triggered them, unlike normal AoOs, errata fixed that.
If you are correct (and I'm unsure if I am correct as I'm AFB), then please post the relevant text to clarify for the boards, as I've seen this come up many a time, The King of Smack builds being the most notorious.

weenog

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2010, 12:18:32 AM »
No.  If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now.  I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.

Do your own research.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2010, 12:23:58 AM »
Maybe it's time for a build that optomizes Dodge?  Not any of the variants, but plain old Dodge?  What feats are there that help?

Titan-Fighting (in this case, almost necessitates a Gnome)
Elusive Target

What else?

Time to find the Dancing with Shadows Duelist build...which is Kalastar only. Still, a tricked up Combat expertise is recommended here.

No.  If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now.  I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.

Do your own research.

Just use Double Hit and Robilar's Gambit. Smaller feat investment. Only 4 feats with Gloves of the Balanced Hand. And none of the feats are worthless.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:40:09 AM by skydragonknight »
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strider24seven

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM »
No.  If you've seen this come up many a time, in heavily scrutinized builds like the King of Smack, you've already seen the RAW counters, and chosen to ignore them or you wouldn't be putting forth the idea that you can do it now.  I'm not going through the hassle of re-acquiring the relevant errata files and rules clarifications to type up a big chunk of copy for you to ignore again.

Do your own research.
Actually, I just combed through both the PHBII and CW errata and there's no mention whatsoever of either Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit.

Errata: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
Karmic Strike text: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Kiho (Best I could find)
Robilar's Gambit: http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Robilar~s_Gambit

And perusing through the texts online (which seem accurate to me, they look the same as the text from my PHBII and CW), Robilar's provokes when your opponent attacks, and takes effect after the attack, and Karmic Strike's provokes when they actually hit you, but takes effect simultaneously with the enemy's attack.  It doesn't stop your enemy from hitting you, but you still get to slap him twice after he hits you. 

I did my own research and, as far as I can tell, by RAW, my (slightly revised) interpretation is perfectly legal.  If I am still missing something, please enlighten me.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:40:04 AM by strider24seven »

Zombieboots

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 01:32:43 AM »
So back on topic Amechra:
I personally know this is old news back form 339, but if you are that pumped about Elusive Target I'll give you a few more things to check out:

Midnight Dodge, Temerad Mastery I, and one of the Planartouch stone location allows you to target different opponents and all count as dodging them. So if you come up with some reasonable build it can target four opponents.
Actually I think with the wording on Temerad Mastery I that you can target five since it would apply to both Midnight and normal Dodge.

Secondly: Word Given Form. From the Tome of Magic, and the only decent thing truenaming has given us. It's not a feat, it's a Martial arts style meaning you just gain it when you met the pre-reqs at level 9. You keep your AC bonus vs an opponet you are dodging, but also gain a 50% miss chance.

Edit: Ah! I went looking but I couldn't find it. I was sure there is some Monk-eqse feat that when an opponent misses you due to dodge you get to make a trip attack and toss him in some direction, but for the life of me I can not find it.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 01:40:49 AM by Zombieboots »
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InnaBinder

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 10:07:26 AM »
I've actually played with a friend who used a wicked Whisper Gnome Fighter 20 that abused the hell out of this feat, along with Gloom Razor and Confound the Big Folk and the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Lockdown Nonsense.  He basically moved into an enemy's square for a few turns and proceeded to rape him/her.  The enemy really couldn't do anything without getting screwed.  He couldn't attack effectively(cover+Gloom Razor+Karmic/Robilar's).  He couldn't move (Thicket of Blades martial stance+Stand Still).  He couldn't do nothing either (Defensive Sweep).  
...
Fuck, now I want to make this character.  I've been toying w/ a gnome Titan Fighting, Underfoot Combat tank for a while now.  
Just playing with the concept, I got:

Jungle Dwarf (Small size, Poison Use, no listed STR penalty) Fighter 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 1/Stoneblessed (Gnome) 3/Gnome Giant-Slayer 10/Warblade 4.  Feats: 1st - Martial Study (Distracting Ember), Desert Wind Dodge; 2nd - Mobility; 3rd - Combat Reflexes; 6th - Spring Attack; 9th - Combat Expertise; 12th - Karmic Strike; 15th - Robilar's Gambit; 18th - Defensive Sweep.  Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.
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CantripN

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2010, 10:35:06 AM »
Spring Attack is terrible, so you may as well dump it.
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InnaBinder

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2010, 11:01:03 AM »
Spring Attack is terrible, so you may as well dump it.
Required for Gnome Giant-Slayer.  Dumping it without gaining it in some other fashion defeats the point of the build.
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Senevri

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2010, 12:18:47 PM »
Actually, how's Spring Attack for super-skirmishing shadowdancers? You can after all, hide as a part of a move... and stealth is superior to invisibility in that it's not negated by true seeing or see invisibility.

Let me check my books... (ooh, savvy rogue+opportunist is awesome when flanking).
( ooh, hidden blade + persistent attacker = sneak attack with every spring attack, even if they know you're coming. Expensive SA-wise, but if you have Crippling Strike, f'r ex... )

( The Sacred Blacksmith is TOTALLY using Greater Shadow Conjuration. )

In any case, there are some classes that require dodge and mobility.

Duelist,
Shadowdancer,
Elocater - also Spring Attack

Combat Medic requires dodge AND gains Mobility.
Dread Commando requires both Dodge and Mobility (and synergizes with the 2-level Shadowdancer dip)

What else? I could already see a Hidden Talent Soulknife 1/shadowdancer 2/dread commando 5/War Mind 2/elocater 10 build, would probably even be fun.

*edit*
Oh, and Swiftblade.

Unbeliever

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2010, 12:40:26 PM »
So back on topic Amechra:
I personally know this is old news back form 339, but if you are that pumped about Elusive Target I'll give you a few more things to check out:

Midnight Dodge, Temerad Mastery I, and one of the Planartouch stone location allows you to target different opponents and all count as dodging them. So if you come up with some reasonable build it can target four opponents.
Actually I think with the wording on Temerad Mastery I that you can target five since it would apply to both Midnight and normal Dodge.

Secondly: Word Given Form. From the Tome of Magic, and the only decent thing truenaming has given us. It's not a feat, it's a Martial arts style meaning you just gain it when you met the pre-reqs at level 9. You keep your AC bonus vs an opponet you are dodging, but also gain a 50% miss chance.
...
Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material?  My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.

strider24seven

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2010, 12:48:19 PM »
 Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.

Just use flaws.  If you're desparate for feats, nothing beats flaws.  
If you can't use those, drop 2 levels of Warblade for Psychic Warrior.  The powers are fairly worthless, unless you can get a reversed Expansion (Reduction?), but you get 2 bonus feats from the fighter list (others too), and nothing beats those.  Actually, dropping 2 more Warblade levels would let you dip 2 in Crusader for Thicket of Blades to fuck with people some more if you can get reach somehow.  Also, I noticed the lack of Confound the Bigfolk and Titan Fighting (unless the Giant-slayer grants them somehow).

Edit:  Whoops! Caught up in that quote there.  Fixed now.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:59:43 PM by strider24seven »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2010, 12:56:17 PM »
Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material?  My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.
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strider24seven

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2010, 01:01:03 PM »
Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material?  My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.

I'm sure there's an item that does it, somewhere...  I'm thinking some sort of Underdark or Scoundrel book...

InnaBinder

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2010, 01:31:25 PM »
 Didn't fit in the OP's Elusive Target though.

Just use flaws.  If you're desparate for feats, nothing beats flaws.  
If you can't use those, drop 2 levels of Warblade for Psychic Warrior.  The powers are fairly worthless, unless you can get a reversed Expansion (Reduction?), but you get 2 bonus feats from the fighter list (others too), and nothing beats those.  Actually, dropping 2 more Warblade levels would let you dip 2 in Crusader for Thicket of Blades to fuck with people some more if you can get reach somehow.  Also, I noticed the lack of Confound the Bigfolk and Titan Fighting (unless the Giant-slayer grants them somehow).

Edit:  Whoops! Caught up in that quote there.  Fixed now.
It grants Titan Fighting.  I'd definitely advocate Flaws to fit in Confound the Bigfolk & Elusive Target if allowed, as well.
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Zombieboots

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2010, 02:00:32 PM »
Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material?  My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.

Only one feat I mentioned is Dragon Magazine (Temerad Mastery I), the rest are from various sources books published by WotC.
Magic Incarnum, Planarhandbook, Tome of Magic.

Alot of DMs rule that the Swashbucklers Dodge Bonus counts as dodge as well, but that is strictly a House Rule.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 02:04:29 PM by Zombieboots »
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Unbeliever

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2010, 02:43:25 PM »
Is there any way to gain multiple dodge buddies w/out using Dragon Magazine material?  My research turned up none, but I figured I'd ask.

Only one feat I mentioned is Dragon Magazine (Temerad Mastery I), the rest are from various sources books published by WotC.
Magic Incarnum, Planarhandbook, Tome of Magic.

Alot of DMs rule that the Swashbucklers Dodge Bonus counts as dodge as well, but that is strictly a House Rule.
Well, yeah, but only one of them, Temerad Mastery, actually adds a dodge buddy.  The Monastery of Zerth (Planar Handbook page 163, the touchstone location I assume you were referring to) gives you a dodge bonus, but it doesn't necessarily trigger the feat, which is what I was looking for in order to get more mileage out of Titan Fighting. 

I suppose the Ninja one will work.  Honestly, I don't think it'd be that hard a sell to let some of those abilities give me extra dodge buddies, but given that I'm considering a build to exploit it I wanted to see what non-house ruled backing there was.

Zombieboots

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2010, 03:16:40 PM »
You went searching through all the Touchstones and didn't bother to glance are Midnight dodge? I'm hurt.

Quote from: Midnightdodge
Special: Midnight Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 03:18:19 PM by Zombieboots »
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Unbeliever

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2010, 04:57:59 PM »
You went searching through all the Touchstones and didn't bother to glance are Midnight dodge? I'm hurt.

Quote from: Midnightdodge
Special: Midnight Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.

No, I knew exactly what Midnight Dodge did before you mentioned.  Or so I thought.  B/c I just re-read it at your prompting, and those bolded words sell me on it completely. 

So, mea culpa. 

lans

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Re: Here's a feat I haven't seen used...
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2010, 05:56:56 PM »
Combat defense allows you to change your dodge target as an immediate action

Edit-Things like Desert Wind Dodge and Expeditous dodge count as dodge but don't target. They might be able to work.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 06:00:03 PM by lans »
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