Author Topic: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.  (Read 21596 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 11:36:50 AM »
Why spend two feat slots on Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk at all?

Level 1+ you party with an arcane caster, or anything capable of throwing marbles.
Level 2+ Hidden Blade works for one attack per encounter, requires one feat instead of two, granted a level earlier, and is meant to be retrained.
Level 3+ you have Brains over Brawn's intelligence to initiative/hide/move for surprise rounds & going first.
Level 4+* there is a Ring Of The Diamond Mind(sapphire nightmare blade).
Level 5+* there is Blurstrike (10rnds/day foe is flat-footed).
Level 8+ you use Cunning Surge to throw marbles, or just animate something to do it for you.
Level 10+ you can buy Shadow Hands(shadow garrote) and use a ready action(after my enemy makes his attacks or casts his spell).
Level 11 a legacy item offers a 5x5 grease effect as a swift action infinite times per day (makes a fun slide during downtime).
*depending on how you spend your money

Other than Shadow Garrote, everything works on turn 1 allowing you to kill your foe before he even has a turn. CtBF, not so much.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 11:41:56 AM »
I have pondered the Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk tumble prerequisite. You can take Favored/Primary Contact giving you an extra rank in tumble making you able to take Underfoot Combat at 6th and CtBF at 9th. Or if you don't want to drop 2 feats on it you could take a minor Air Elemental bloodline and pick up Improved Initiative before 8th and then when you would gain it again you can pick any feat you are eligible for, such as Underfoot Combat.
You can use a level of Marshal and SF: Diplomacy to pick up feats earlier than normal, also, but you probably only want to do that on diplomancer builds.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 11:57:57 AM »
I'm not that familiar with the same game test, but can you actually be creative?
I don't know a lot about SGTs either, but I think you're supposed to test the class against each of the listed encounters three times and check for success.  The 10th level encounters are:

A Fire Giant
A Young Blue Dragon
A Bebilith
A Vrock
A tag team of Mind Flayers
An Evil Necromancer
6 Trolls
A horde of Shadows

Some of them are a bit vague.  I don't know what a "hoard" of shadows is.


Can you do things like spend a third level slot for a bunch of undead and then wander around with 40HD in raised minions to help you out in future encounters?  Can you make use of casting Minor Creation as a standard action to instant kill one encounter per day?  I'm just not sure what they allow.  Due to their low spells per day but full access to all Wizard Sorcerer spells, Factotums benefit a great deal from spells that are cast now and help you a lot later.  Spells like Planar Binding, Minor Creation and Animate Dead are a lot more useful than Greater Invisibility.  Remember, you cast all your spells as standard actions unless they're faster (since they're spell like, see the Monster Manual), so long cast time spells are combat usable for you.
I'm not sure who created the SGT, but I don't think they take most of these tricks seriously.  A lot of classes have ways to spam free wishes, but from my experience, either those kinds of tricks never see the light of day at a gaming table, or the DM fully embraces it and you just enter into the Wish economy anyway.

Obviously, it's subjective as hell as to what a DM will or won't allow, but I do have to agree that it's dishonest to run a SGT with tricks that won't work in real play.  There's a thread at the Den discussing this (which prompted the OP), and they're running the comparison against a flask rogue, so it really depends on what you think your DM likes/allows.  As fair warning, a lot of the first page is bashing Jaron's tier system before they actually start to discuss the merits of each class.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 12:25:24 PM »
As fair warning, a lot of the first page is bashing Jaron's tier system before they actually start to discuss the merits of each class.
Eh, that's pretty much par for the course there.  ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 12:49:23 PM »
Well, yeah.  I just didn't want anyone to feel like I was leading them into an ambush, or something.  Although I do have to say that I find the whole monk/fighter/rogue/wizard level tiering nicely intuitive.

Of course, any tiering system falls apart depending on what you do and don't allow in.  For example, not allowing multiclassing is nice for measuring classes, but not for characters.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2010, 01:23:35 PM »
Well, yeah.  I just didn't want anyone to feel like I was leading them into an ambush, or something.  Although I do have to say that I find the whole monk/fighter/rogue/wizard level tiering nicely intuitive.

Of course, any tiering system falls apart depending on what you do and don't allow in.  For example, not allowing multiclassing is nice for measuring classes, but not for characters.
What we really need is a point system, where every level, skill, feat, spell, and other ability is ranked with a certain amount of points. (Odd fighter levels are ranked lower than even fighter levels, wizards are the other way around, Celerity is a better spell choice than Fire Trap, etcetera.) Where your final total falls on the scale (which, of course, depends on your level) determines your power level. Of course, this is more complicated than it sounds, since some elements would have point values depending on what else you have (Persistent Spell might be a three on its own, but if DMM is added to the mix it jumps to a thirteen), and the trick is to make sure that every result is accurate so that you don't have the numerically "best" build being a meaningless jumble of classes, skills, and feats that don't mesh well together.

Of course, if you did this, you could also write an optimization program to help you with character builds pretty easily without worrying about it returning nothing but the most ridiculous builds. Give it a few parameters, select a desired "tier" (point range, in this case), and it can churn out several possible combinations.

But it would be an insane amount of work. Perfect for a community project, maybe.

JaronK

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2010, 01:34:49 PM »
Yeah, I figured that's what this was.  The Den is pretty much the only place where they look at the Rogue and Factotum and decide the one with access to all the low to mid level Wizard spells and the ability to destroy the action economy whenever it's convenient is the weak one while the one who's primary combat ability simply fails to work against a wide variety of monster types (undead, plants, elementals, constructs, oozes) and is easy to ignore by many other monsters (Dread Necromancers, Barbarians, many things with Blindsight, etc) is the strong one.  Any time someone says there's a debate about Factotums fitting in to T3, they mean at the Den (and a few specific posters over there).  It's not even a debate anywhere else.

Meanwhile, I hardly consider casting Animate Dead to be a trick that never sees the light of day at a gaming table.  Heck, I've even used the minor creation poison one (for unlimited poison though, not for AoE instant killing encounters).  My problem with most general test run scenarios is they're usually done as isolated encounters, so you don't see the proactive aspects of classes, only the reactive ones, which makes the really powerful classes look a lot weaker (it ignores, for example, the ability of a Dread Necromancer to locate a grave yard in a metropolis and raise a bunch of very potent minions or even to raise minions from old encounters to fight new ones, or the ability of a Wizard to Fabricate new and potent armor for his friends/minions).  Since proactive stuff like that is often a lot more powerful (it's often hand waved away as being "not allowed at any table") this is a noticeable hit.  It's also usually entirely combat focused... there's rarely anything like "infiltrate the insular tyrannical society and make contact with the resistance movement there" or "get through a set of obstacles" or "prepare some troops for war."  Such things are common in most games I've seen, but just aren't tested.  As a result, such things make more flexible classes look weaker, while purely combat focused classes (like Fighters) end up looking stronger than they by rights should be.  

Which may be where the debate on Factotums comes from.  They're basically saying "Factotums are weak, because DMs ban the strong stuff about Factotums" and "Rogues are powerful, because the DM would be a dick to force you to fight stuff that sneak attack doesn't work on without handing you gear to fix that."  Sure, Factotums are weak if you ban all the stronger Wizard spells that they use (I've seen arguments that Alter Self should be banned for Factotums, but not Wild Shape for Druids, because Alter Self is broken... despite the fact that both classes get those abilities at the same time and Alter Self lasts a lot shorter) and don't allow they to use all skills and claim it's "theoretical optimization" to have them use Cunning Surge multiple times (another argument I've seen, also by someone trying to prove Factotums were weak).  Wizards are weak if you ban all their strong spells too.  So what?  That just means you're house ruling.  I notice that the monsters listed here are all either not immune to sneak attack or are undead (so a Gravestrike wand deals with it... assuming your DM is being friendly and plays with the Rules Compendium).  Where are all the constructs and such?

So yeah, if you want to actually prepare for these enemies, they should be a push over.  Most of them can't even detect a well prepared Factotum.  Just ambush the lil' buggers.  If you can afford to get a few Turn Resistance reducers, just AoE nuke the undead encounters.

JaronK

Hallack

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »
yeah, I stumbled upon that thread last week when it had started.  I was just googling stuff on Factotum.  Certainly was entertaining in the Jerry Springer sort of way but not really informative.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2010, 02:45:47 PM »
Yeah, I figured that's what this was.  The Den is pretty much the only place where they look at the Rogue and Factotum and decide the one with access to all the low to mid level Wizard spells and the ability to destroy the action economy whenever it's convenient is the weak one while the one who's primary combat ability simply fails to work against a wide variety of monster types (undead, plants, elementals, constructs, oozes) and is easy to ignore by many other monsters (Dread Necromancers, Barbarians, many things with Blindsight, etc) is the strong one.  Any time someone says there's a debate about Factotums fitting in to T3, they mean at the Den (and a few specific posters over there).  It's not even a debate anywhere else.
Most of the damage limitation can be overcome with three wands, but you're right that there are still holes.  Still, I thought a rogue came out ahead on damage if it can full attack (and get past immunities).  They both have access to UMD, so they tie there.  Other than that, a factotum has a handful of spells (which isn't much more than what you could get with UMD anyway), and the chance to get some actions a couple of times per day.  You could blow all of your feats on FoI (if the DM allows that web enhancement), but even still, you can't nova like that all day.


Meanwhile, I hardly consider casting Animate Dead to be a trick that never sees the light of day at a gaming table.  Heck, I've even used the minor creation poison one (for unlimited poison though, not for AoE instant killing encounters).  My problem with most general test run scenarios is they're usually done as isolated encounters, so you don't see the proactive aspects of classes, only the reactive ones, which makes the really powerful classes look a lot weaker (it ignores, for example, the ability of a Dread Necromancer to locate a grave yard in a metropolis and raise a bunch of very potent minions or even to raise minions from old encounters to fight new ones, or the ability of a Wizard to Fabricate new and potent armor for his friends/minions).  Since proactive stuff like that is often a lot more powerful (it's often hand waved away as being "not allowed at any table") this is a noticeable hit.  It's also usually entirely combat focused... there's rarely anything like "infiltrate the insular tyrannical society and make contact with the resistance movement there" or "get through a set of obstacles" or "prepare some troops for war."  Such things are common in most games I've seen, but just aren't tested.  As a result, such things make more flexible classes look weaker, while purely combat focused classes (like Fighters) end up looking stronger than they by rights should be.  
I don't see Animate Dead as crazy either.  I do consider Minor Creation as making crap-tons of poison out in left field, but we'd probably have to agree to disagree on that one.  Of course, any time you're rating classes and you can't come to agreement on things like that, any rating system is going to be of questionable usefulness.  Basically, you have to say: "running the game under these circumstances, here's the results".  As soon as those circumstances change, the ratings change.

But you already knew that. ;)


Wizards are weak if you ban all their strong spells too.  So what?  That just means you're house ruling.  
You'd have to do a lot of banning to hurt a high level wizard.  Most of what they're talking about is either stuff that's questionable based on opinion, or stuff from obscure web sources.  You can just pickup a PHB and rock the socks off the game with a wizard by mid levels.  The Factotum could rely on a web enhancement, a 3.0 setting-specific book, and a 3.5 race specific book.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's going to pass fewer DM's test of how-many-books-are-you-brining-to-the-table.


I notice that the monsters listed here are all either not immune to sneak attack or are undead (so a Gravestrike wand deals with it... assuming your DM is being friendly and plays with the Rules Compendium).  Where are all the constructs and such?
I don't have the lists handy, but I remember there being some animated object on another list (level 5 or 15?).  There are golems, but I have no idea what the break down is by type, or who designed the lists.


So yeah, if you want to actually prepare for these enemies, they should be a push over.  Most of them can't even detect a well prepared Factotum.  Just ambush the lil' buggers.  If you can afford to get a few Turn Resistance reducers, just AoE nuke the undead encounters.
That's one thing I've always found dubious about the STG.  It seems that you could optimize a PC to handle the specific encounters.  The closer you have to a full-prepared caster, the easier it is to tailor to the encounter list.

I don't know if this is an expected side-effect, or what.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2010, 03:24:29 PM »
I just wanted to post that I didn't want to fan the flames of any interfora hostility. I was reading over at the Den and I don't agree with Uber's analysis. I posted the results of a stock SGT using a flask Rogue and a Factotum, even though I ran the Factotum wrong both won 5 out of 9 combats but a lot of people disproportionately criticized the Factotum so I don't think they are debating in good faith. Actually, having read some of the older posts I know some are not posting in good faith.

The Den likes flask Rogues, so I learned a bit about them over there, BG seems to put Factotums so I'll learn about them here. I'm not going to be cross posting any thing I learn hear to the Den, they've already made up their minds.

juton

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2010, 03:31:09 PM »
What we really need is a point system, where every level, skill, feat, spell, and other ability is ranked with a certain amount of points. (Odd fighter levels are ranked lower than even fighter levels, wizards are the other way around, Celerity is a better spell choice than Fire Trap, etcetera.) Where your final total falls on the scale (which, of course, depends on your level) determines your power level. Of course, this is more complicated than it sounds, since some elements would have point values depending on what else you have (Persistent Spell might be a three on its own, but if DMM is added to the mix it jumps to a thirteen), and the trick is to make sure that every result is accurate so that you don't have the numerically "best" build being a meaningless jumble of classes, skills, and feats that don't mesh well together.

Of course, if you did this, you could also write an optimization program to help you with character builds pretty easily without worrying about it returning nothing but the most ridiculous builds. Give it a few parameters, select a desired "tier" (point range, in this case), and it can churn out several possible combinations.

But it would be an insane amount of work. Perfect for a community project, maybe.

A point system would be awesome, but like you've noted it would practically be impossible. It is easier if you start with a point system then build characters, like in Mutants and Masterminds. I've tried drawing up a few of those but D&D just isn't compatible with that.

RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2010, 03:53:31 PM »
Sorry if I stepped on your toes, Juton.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2010, 04:11:42 PM »
I'm not that familiar with the same game test, but can you actually be creative?
I don't know a lot about SGTs either, but I think you're supposed to test the class against each of the listed encounters three times and check for success.  The 10th level encounters are:

A Fire Giant
A Young Blue Dragon
A Bebilith
A Vrock
A tag team of Mind Flayers
An Evil Necromancer
6 Trolls
A horde of Shadows

Some of them are a bit vague.  I don't know what a "hoard" of shadows is.

I don't like that list of encounters at all, if only for the fact that it places sole focus on combat.

I would like something like:
Steal a trophy out of a Fire Giant's lair.
Make it through an Necromancer's graveyard.
Fortify and defend a small village against a "hoard" of trolls.

RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2010, 04:26:15 PM »
Yeah, because you could just bypass many of those encounters as a mid to high level caster, and in many situations, that could constitute "defeating" the encounter.

I can see why they use combat primarily, because that's what most of D&D's rules are written for, but it does lack some of the interesting parts of a "real" game.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2010, 05:49:58 PM »
There should be some traps in the example SGT, I think the default is a hall full of explosive runes. In addition to what Dark Samurai I think there should also be some social situations, like talk a king out of invading another nation. I know in my games only about 1/2-2/3 of encounters are combats, so you have to be able to do more than kill stuff.

Some of these encounters are also pretty vague, how many shadows are in a horde, is the necromancer a wizard or a cleric, what minions does it have? I try and run stuff like I would when I DM, be hard but fair. Ultimately the SGT isn't an exact process, but it should point out that your character can or can't hold its weight in combat.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2010, 06:07:23 PM »
Traps ... shhh !!


I don't have a bone to pick in this fight,
because Rogues aren't my thing since 1e,
and I never had access and didn't work on any part of Facto.

SGT is combat only.
That's fine and all.
It works out one specific thing.

Traps + Skills in "near" combat situations,
and total out of combat down time, crafting, healing, buffing;
are a whole 'nuther ball game.

At some point the DM has to hand the Rogue some magic items
OR the Rogue has to go to town to visit the local Magic Mart (which the DM also has a hand in).
Otherwise ... I've nothing to add.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2010, 06:15:08 PM »
Some of these encounters are also pretty vague, how many shadows are in a horde
Obviously it should be enough to make an EL10 encounter. /shrug
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juton

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2010, 07:24:35 PM »
I've actually worked it out, there are 12-13 shadows in a horde, but I think their could be 10 and it still works out. With such a large number your chances of success depend on how they are positioned and if the act as one group or more. I think with a stock Factotum you should be able to walk up, turn undead, spam an extra action, turn undead again and expect to clear about 11 of them in one turn. Factotums can even turn undead, now if there was only some way of parleying that into DMM...

RobbyPants

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2010, 09:01:30 PM »
Question about the SGT: if you're a caster who prepares spells, do you have to use the same list for every encounter, or can you pick a new set for each encounter?  That will have a lot to do with the factotum's success rate.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotums and the level 10 same game test.
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2010, 11:45:16 PM »
Indeed.  Though since it seems like the Rogues are always able to go purchase Gravestrike wands (which I still think are a horribly solution that fails to work in most games, but that's another issue), clearly you've got plenty of time to prepare your specific attack spells (heck, at that rate a Wizard could research spells before these encounters).  In which case the Factotum ought to win pretty much any battle (same goes for any prepared caster).

And I do hate that it's all straightforward "you walk into a room, here's an enemy" encounters.  Yes, D&D deals with that a lot, but if you look at prepublished campaigns most of them have a significant portion of "you're in a town, talk to the people in the town and determine who's part of the evil cult.  Also, make allies where needed."  Really, the entire thing penalizes a lot of what creative and flexible classes do (adapt to situations and change their power set) by assuming everything's going to be hack and slash.  Certainly a class like a Factotum who can become an expert once a day in Forgery to bring in special help due to a king's special order or make one important friend a day via Diplomacy does a lot of things in play that the SGT doesn't account for.

And I'm not a fan of any test that purports to test how classes work but includes built in house rules.  At that point, you're testing the house rules, not the classes.  The whole point with the tiers was to show where classes are before house rules, because that avoids having stupid situations like nerfing a T3 class into being much weaker while leaving T1s alone (if your house rules make sense balance wise, they should nerf the T1s more than the T2s, the T2s more than the T3s, etc).  The entire Factotum argument is based on the concept that you're going to nerf the Factotum to make him weak, thus the class should be considered weak to begin with.  That's missing the point on all kinds of levels.

I also still think potion thrower Rogues, especially ones that rely on UMD, are a terrible idea for anything but a one off duel.  What's with the endless wands and consumables available whenever you need them?  Does anyone here actually have DMs that let your Rogue move up, spot some undead, say "whoops, brb," run back to town, buy a wand of Gravestrike, then run back?  Then when they see a Construct do they run and get a Wand of Razing Strike?  Or do you just waste a bunch of money on these situational wands and then find that, oh darn, you're fighting plants?  The assumption that you'll always have the wands you need approaches Giacomo Monk levels of unplayability.  The moment you're relying entirely on consumables is the moment you know you're in trouble.

Of course, I've always been a skillmonkey player, and one who started with Rogues.  I loved the concept of the Rogue but hated the implementation... constantly dealing with undead or constructs or elementals or other immunes, being far too weak on defense to stand a chance, etc.  Then the Factotum came out and fixed all the problems.  The Factotum is to the Rogue what the Warblade is to the Fighter (not quite as dramatic, of course).  So having anyone claim the Rogue is the better class is laughable.

Still, if you're building a Factotum just for same game tests and know the enemies, you might as well use the same trick.  Go with a Rod of Defiance and Lyre of Building, and blow up all the undead encounters in a single one shot TKO.  Sneak and snipe kill the, well, everything else, since nothing there has long range detection.  You're not a Rogue... you don't need to get within 30'.  From 300 feet out you can just use a bow + Knowledge Devotion (poison optional) to take them out.  They're at -30 to spot from that range, so you just win. 

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