Author Topic: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?  (Read 7666 times)

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Endarire

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Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« on: August 12, 2010, 11:02:58 PM »
Intro
Metamagic is meant to allow casters to perform 'tricks' with their spells.  In general, (*spell* + *metamagic*) is more powerful than (*spell*).

Metamagic feats were tacked on in third edition.  WotC tried to apply linear benefit (metamagic feats) to an exponential system (spell slot value).  Most metamagic feats aren't like a Fighter feat that's always on (Improved Initiative) or a feat that's easily activated (Power Attack).  There's always an additional cost.

Extra Costs
In general, metamagicked spells come too late to be useful.  If you could Extend mage armor from level 1 (making it last 2 hours) or ray of enfeeblement (making it last 2 rounds), then it would be a serious candidate as a level 1 feat.

As it is, you probably don't need the duration boost once you could legally apply Extend Spell, and Extend is considered one of the more useful core metamagics.

Alternatively, let's say you took the feat Empower Spell.  It has no feat, skill, or stat prereqs, and some Wizard may have even taken it at level 1.

If you're a prepared caster, you must declare you're using it by using a spell slot 2 levels higher than normal.  If you're a spontaneous caster, you're almost always using a small number of spells known and must use a longer time to cast the spell.  (I know there are ways to avoid the extra time, or turn prepared casters into spontaneous casters, but those are resource trades or further resource investments.)

Excluding fast progression casting classes, the soonest you can use it is level 3 to Empower a cantrip.  Even blasters realize that an Empowered acid splash is only (d3 * 1.5) while a scorching ray is 4d6.

In an 'optimal' case, a Wizard9 or Wizard10 can do (9d6 * 1.5) or (10d6 * 1.5) with a level 5 slot compared to a normal level 5 spell which would probably only deal 9d6 or 10d6 damage.

Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods are core, and for good reason.  The designers subtly said, "Oops!" and included a quick means to rectify their system.

My Experience
I've played 2 Wizards in epic (level 30+), one Wizard from level 1 to ~18, another Wizard at 21, and another Wizard under a variant spell point system who's level 10.

My level 18+ Wizards only used metamagic when it was spontaneously applicable or free.  Among the 3 Wizards, I may have cast 10 metamagicked spells this way that weren't Auto-Quickened.

The only reason my level 10 Wizard uses metamagic is because I can spontaneously apply it, and I pay in spell points, not spell slots.  Also, the DM lets me spend as many spell points as I have, meaning I could cast a level 5 spell with 10 metamagics if I had the feats and spell points.  In sum, I can use my metamagic feats, and it's fun!

The Dilemma
We're stuck with a dilemma.  What do we do about metamagic feats?  Casters are already powerful, and giving 'free' metamagic would uberize casters even more.

Yet it does not seem fair to recommend or require a bunch of useless feats to anyone.  My precious resource (feats) had better get me something worth the investment.  It also isn't like Fighters can only Power Attack with their secondary attacks, which metamagic feats seem to do to spellcasters.

Questions I never had answered to my satisfaction:  Which spells are we meant to metamagic?  How powerful are these meant to be overall?

Alternative Systems
For those displeased with the current system and in the DM's chair, consider these options.

1: At cast time, allow a skill check to reduce the metamagic's cost.  Similar to a 3.5 Incantatrix, this allows those blessed with epic Spellcraft (or a skill of the DM's choice) to, y'know, use their metamagic in a friendly fashion.  Passing the check means the metamagic is free (woohoo!) or cast at a reduced cost (yay).

If using the reduced cost option, also consider option 2.

2: Force casters to give up a spell level equal to the metamagic slot increase.  Adding Empower Spell (+2 slot levels) to a spell would require you expend a level 2 spell slot as well as the spell you were originally casting.  Adding Extend (+1 slot level) and Maximize (+3 slot levels) would require losing a level 1 slot and a level 3 slot.

Alternatively, you could spend a number of slot levels equal to the total cost.  Adding Quicken (+4 slot levels) would require spending 4 levels worth of spells, such as 1 level 2 and 2 level 1s.

3: Nix metamagic feats and make metamagic 'rod only'.  Many players already avoid metamagic feats.  Now, this would officially apply to everyone.

Since many metamagic feats lack an equivalent rod, you would need to determine such an item's price.

4: Allow metamagic feats to give a certain number of free daily applications.  For example, taking Extend Spell gets you 1 free daily application for any spell you know.

Perhaps you could retake Extend Spell, getting 2 more free daily applications each time.

What I Would Do
I believe metamagic feats are meant to make your lower-level spells comparable in power to your max level spells. 

1: Nix Heighten Spell and remove it as a prerequisite.  Instead, a spell cast from a slot level is treated in all ways as a spell of that spell level.  Normally, an Extended acid arrow requires a level 3 slot but is treated as a level 2 spell.  Now, it's considered a level 3 spell in all regards.

The existence of Heighten Spell creates unintended synergies by the rules as written.  Shadowcraft Mages and early entry tricks attest to how this feat is typically used.

2: Allow free metamagic applications to lower level spells.  Let's assume you're a Wizard9 with Extend (+1 slot level), Empower (+2 slot levels), Maximize (+3 slot levels), and Quicken Spell (+4 slot levels).  You can freely apply Maximize Spell to your level 0-2 spells, since they don't require a spell slot of a level you lack.  You can Empower and Extend a mirror image as it would normally be a level 5 spell.  Likewise, you can Quicken a shield.

Best of all, these spells don't require higher level slots!

If they did, we'd be back to the core rules with spells that cost more (feat + spell slot) but do less.

3: Rebalance existing metamagic feats.  Persistent Spell (+6 slot levels) is a joke.  A level 13 Wizard who can plane shift and who may have already taken over the world isn't paying using a level 7 slot to make his shield last all day.

Metamagic feats were a sly way to pad book length.  It looks like it has potential, but it ain't worth it by the time you get there.

The 'Big' Metamagics: Extend, Persistent, and Quicken Spell
People take these to save actions.  Really.  If I want something to happen now, I would have Persisted it to make it last 24 hours, or would Quicken it so I can take the rest of my turn.

Extend Spell is Persistent's little brother.  Extend is rarely worth a feat on its own, but Extend + Persist = buff joy.

Rarely have any other metamagic feats been generally recommended.  Blasters may take Empower and Maximize, crowd controllers may take Sculpt, and buffers may take Ocular and Chain.  Regardless, Incantatrix or Divine Metamagic are usually involved.

Persistent Spell - Reconcilable?
Persistent Spell is in an awkward position.  For players and DMs, it means you know a buff will be active for a day unless it's dispelled or an antimagic field envelops the target.  Persisted buffs are usually uber because they change potent spells from a fight or few (fire shield, divine power) into something that's on all day.

Many have tried to price Persistent Spell based on the original spell's duration.  A round/level spell would cost more than a 10 minute/level spell.  I understand why you'd do this, but it just feels wrong to me.

This dilemma exposes another problem with the system:  A round/level buff requiring a standard action to cast is almost never worth casting in combat.  By using such a buff, you probably put your allies in greater danger because you did nothing to directly hamper the enemy this round.

Such short duration spells expose something about player attitudes, at least in my experience.  Every round, players want to use their action offensively.  Casting haste in combat on a physical-heavy party is like shaking up a can of soda in a rocket-powered paint mixer.  Conversely, casting displacement in combat is asking the enemy to pound on your allies instead, perhaps in a disproportionate manner.
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Black Knight

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 11:20:28 PM »
UA introduced the Spontaneous Daily Use Metamagic alternative. 

I'm currently playing a low-level sorcerer and am finding great fun with my SDU Sculpted grease spell that I can cast as a 1st level spell.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 11:24:08 PM »
Empower and maximize spell is worth it for ability-damaging and level draining spells like ray of stupidity, shriveling touch, and enervation.

I'll also say that split ray is generally worth it too, effectively being twin spell for half the cost.

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 12:21:37 AM »
I had a long answer, but I'll save you. Who cares if they aren't as optimal as you like. Balance casters first before you throw them bones.
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 12:31:14 AM »
Metamagic enables midlevel sorcerers to 1-shot anything in the book with orbs... over and over again.  it is SERIOUSLY powerful if used right!
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Bastian

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 12:45:11 AM »
Balance casters first before you throw them bones.
This.

Havok4

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 01:25:43 AM »
I think the real issue with metamagic is that it is either worthless or broken with very little room in between. One of the few ways to make metamagic worth while is mitigating the costs which is usually a moderate to large character investment at which point it becomes excessively dangerous.

Unbeliever

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 01:54:39 AM »
I think the real issue with metamagic is that it is either worthless or broken with very little room in between. One of the few ways to make metamagic worth while is mitigating the costs which is usually a moderate to large character investment at which point it becomes excessively dangerous.
+1

I'm not super worried about balancing casters.  In part b/c I don't think it can be done w/out major overhaul and in part b/c it's not that big a problem w/ my gaming groups.  But, it would be nice if metamagic was a viable, non-broken option for a caster to go. 

My inclination is to go the x/day for free approach.  I think that would make them at least conceivable to take.  People seem to like the feat in Complete Mage that effectively lets you prepare 3 sculpted or extended spells from a given school for free, and I think it'd only be better if it was spontaneous. 

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 01:59:32 AM »
Yes it's flawed, but hardly worse than the rest of casting.

I actually like sculpt and invisible spell - shenanigans aside, they're good choices, but not no-brainers, and can be used from first level (sculpted caltrops is pretty cool, as is invisible mount)
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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 02:13:49 AM »
Invisible spell is indeed amazing. I need to pick that up the next time I play a conjurer.

fuinjutsu

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 05:14:15 AM »
1: Nix Heighten Spell and remove it as a prerequisite.  Instead, a spell cast from a slot level is treated in all ways as a spell of that spell level.  Normally, an Extended acid arrow requires a level 3 slot but is treated as a level 2 spell.  Now, it's considered a level 3 spell in all regards.

The existence of Heighten Spell creates unintended synergies by the rules as written.  Shadowcraft Mages and early entry tricks attest to how this feat is typically used.

I was just about to start a thread to argue for this one myself
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veekie

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 05:20:23 AM »
It is rarely used, only abused.
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Ivory Knight

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2010, 07:26:18 AM »
For Heighten Spell, see the Killer Gnome(aka Shadowcraft Mage) & about a dozen variations of 'early entry into PrC X'(only gets more silly when Versatile Spellcaster is involved).
Extend is about the only Metamagic, I'd recomment for anyone(it's cheap, can be of use for anyone and a single feat/PrC ability can reduce it to 0 cost).

@Persist:
Aside from DMM & Incantatrix, the Spelldancer-PrC(Perform to reduce MM cost) from Magic of Faerun(3.0, sadly never updated) is the only way I know to reliably persist enough Buff-Spells to make the investment worthwhile.
Honorable mention to the Illumian race, for their 2/day free DMM on any MM feat they know(and have the trun attempts to use).

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2010, 10:17:30 AM »
1: Nix Heighten Spell and remove it as a prerequisite.  Instead, a spell cast from a slot level is treated in all ways as a spell of that spell level.  Normally, an Extended acid arrow requires a level 3 slot but is treated as a level 2 spell.  Now, it's considered a level 3 spell in all regards.
Personally, I'd nix it, and make all saves (spells, abilities, and what not) be 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod.


Persistent Spell - Reconcilable?
Persistent Spell is in an awkward position.  For players and DMs, it means you know a buff will be active for a day unless it's dispelled or an antimagic field envelops the target.  Persisted buffs are usually uber because they change potent spells from a fight or few (fire shield, divine power) into something that's on all day.
Even without Persistent Spell, you still run into the 5-minute workday issue.  In many situations, the group can totally throw down all of their buffs, kick in the door, and destroy what's on the other side.  They keep kicking down doors until their timers run out, then they wait until the next day.  Barring contrived, time-limited plots or DM revenge ambushes, this works way too well.

You could probably make most buffs simply last longer in the first place and it wouldn't hurt the game.  If people have a chance to cast them before combat, then they aren't wasting any actions, so that balance point is already moot.  I don't see any reasonable way to force casters to only buff in combat unless you shorten all buff durations to one round and make them cast as swift actions, or something.  So, assuming you don't force them to buff in combat, just make the buffs last longer so the workday can last longer than five minutes.

If nothing else, Persistent Spell makes things more predictable for the DM.
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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 10:23:14 AM »
Didn't you rewrite the metamagic feats as spells, Robby?
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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 11:23:08 AM »
No.  I remember Veekie coming up with a modified version of Persistent Spell that ended up in my semi-finished project.  Beyond that, I hadn't done much with metamagic feats.
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Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Widow

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 12:05:32 PM »
The ultimate book of feats has an interesting varient to persistant spell called lasting spell.  It increases the duration by one category as in rounds per level to minutes per level.  You can increase it further by burning another spell slot one higher than the adjusted level.  The only downside is it scales all.the way to centuries which could be a huge problem with free metemagic tricks.  Personally i thought the original adjustment of 4 was best on persistent without any free metamagic tricks.  One of the designers stated it was only changes in 3.5 to stop its use with divine power but you see how that.turned out.  Now it is only uaeable with a 3 feat investment with dmm.

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2010, 01:15:50 PM »
Metamagic feats as spells(Swift I presume), I think could work for most of them, though probably nothing can be done with Quicken on that end, other than Arcane Fusion style spells. For a prepared caster, providing a way to prepare two spells as one and cast them out of a higher slot could be interesting. Make it a bit more level efficient for the prepared variant, but the combination need to be predetermined at spell preparation.

The high level adjustment metamagics are really iffy, either they don't get used at all, or they are used with extreme cost reductors and turns into something very interesting. The multiplicative effect of Twin, Admix, Repeat and Quicken can't be underestimated.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2010, 06:40:42 PM »
Balancing metamagic is kinda hard.
A +1 level meta, has to be "balanced" relative to:
feats
feats that scale
m1s to 2s
m2s to 3s
m3s to 4s
etc ...
and every single interaction, instead of just a feat comparo or just a spell comparo.

That's a really big pile of stuff.


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EDIT - yeah so the premise of the thread. I say yes. The Meta- system is fundamentally flawed. And possibly unfixable.
 :(

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Re: Is the Metamagic System Fundamentally Flawed?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2010, 09:43:24 PM »
why not simply give Metamagic feats a different cost .... instead of boosting the spell level .... why not have the metamagic feat do Temporary attribute damage(short term... heals at a rate of 1 point/hour) to the caster... this would reflect the additional stress that the metamagic imposes on the caster ... the caster could choose what attribute was affected with each casting....this is one example.


..... or you could use something similar to how Psionics works(requiring expending Focus)

 :D