Author Topic: How powerful should a feat be?  (Read 4455 times)

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Endarire

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How powerful should a feat be?
« on: August 10, 2010, 05:58:03 PM »
Comparisons
In core, we have the extremes.  Dodge grants +1 AC some of the time.  Improved Initiative grants +4 initiative all of the time.  Also, Leadership grants me an extra character.

Outside core- for casters at least- are Reserve Feats, an attempt to keep casters feeling magical without spending spells.  There are also Tactical Feats which are mostly intended for non-casters.  A small number (Shock Trooper, Woodland Archer) come to mind.  Most are forgotten.

My Opinion
Feats should be precious and significant upgrades for your character.  I consider 15% (usually +3) to be the minimum difference between someone with a feat and someone without.  How many Wizards would take Dodge if it granted a +3 dodge bonus to AC against everything and +1 more per 3 HD you had?

Assuming no flaws for feats, your character will have 6 or 7 general feats in his life, and more likely 2 or 3 before your game ends.  Saying "Fighters get more feats," should not weaken the feats!  Instead, a Fighter gets to choose his fighting style based on his feats.

My Power Level
I consider Tome of Battle essential for interesting melee.  Full attacking has its uses but quickly loses its luster.  Special attacks (bull rushing, tripping) can spice up melee, as can spells (I haste you my pretties!), but how many times do you say, "I whack it/I full attack it" before you hope for something else?

Tier-wise, I enjoy tier 3 and up.  I like that Wizards can do a bit of everything.  It makes sense that magic is powerful and catch-all.  For those who seek greater stamina in fighting, go ahead and gish.  For those disliking magic dependence, try a Warblade or a Crusader.  You can still be relevant, party and environment willing.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 06:09:13 PM »
The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

weenog

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 06:09:37 PM »
When I gun my enginefeats, I want people to think the world is coming to an end!

The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
I ask you what in the hell feat is worth 50-100% of your feats that has Dodge as a prerequisite.  2-4 feats before the game ends seems about normal when you're playing actual games instead of working theoretically.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 06:15:52 PM by weenog »
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fuinjutsu

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 06:21:51 PM »
When I gun my enginefeats, I want people to think the world is coming to an end!

The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
I ask you what in the hell feat is worth 50-100% of your feats that has Dodge as a prerequisite.  2-4 feats before the game ends seems about normal when you're playing actual games instead of working theoretically.

I was explaining what Dodge is supposed to be.  I didn't say it wasn't idiotic.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2010, 07:07:32 PM »
Also, AC is overvalued by game designers (see:vulnerable flaw).

That said, there are things like toughness-> troll blooded where a sucky prereq makes sense.
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RobbyPants

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 01:06:40 AM »
As you already said, you get seven of these by 20th level, and much fewer if your game is capping at around 10th level.  They should be significant, and they should really do more than just +X to this and that.  Bigger numbers is boring.

Also, feat trees should go away.  Each feat should stand alone.  You can always scale better effects at higher levels.
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Dragonamedrake

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 01:19:40 AM »

I love feats and I never thought you recieved enough. When I DM I use several methods to modify that.

1. I use Pathfinder Feat Progression

2. I allow up to two Flaws

3. I award feats for good roleplay. If a player really wanted to use a Bastard Sword he found in a treasure trove but didnt have the feat... he could practice every night for an hour for say a month or two in game time and gain the feat after i felt he had RPed it enough.

4. I award campain feats if played well. If I felt there was a fun feat a character could use but didnt have the feat space I might throw him a bone and work it into the campain. Ex: I had a mage who when captured by Thayan wizards and forced to fight for them... they didnt want to provide him with casting materials and forced him to learn Eschew materials. There you go... he got the feat for free. Ive never had an issue with power creep and usually the characters arent as anal when it came to feat selection... they actually got unique feats that where more flavor then meta.

That at least lets you avoid having to try and balance feats out... the underpowered feats could be RP or Campain feats... this could also be used to promote good RP. Its worked well for me at least.

Unbeliever

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 01:23:59 AM »
I've been experimenting w/ giving out bonus feats.  My feelings behind it are a bit scattered.  Initially, I was aiming for flavor feats -- a random weapon, an eschew materials, etc.  Then, I thought they might also be used to defray the costs of pre-reqs on some feats.  But, it's hard to figure out what qualifies as a "flavor" feat and what doesn't.  One character's crappy flavor feat is another character's pre-req for an awesome prestige class.  In the end, I didn't worry all that much and just told people to try and be nice about it given that they were getting freebies from me. 

I do like the idea, though.  In part, it's b/c I hate forcing people to wait forever to develop their character concept, and I also would like to encourage them to branch out a bit more. 

awaken DM golem

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 06:43:47 PM »
As far as scale goes, the only scale "everybody" agrees with is the Caelic commandment(s) about caster levels.

If feats scaled like spell casting ... that solves a lot of problems.
7 feats + 2 flaw feats = 9 feats to equal 9 spell levels.
Not that it ought to be that obvious.

4e pays more attention to the action economy.
Along those lines:
Quicken
Linked
Leadership
Summon Monster (sort of)
Druid Companion
Schism
Haste-likes
etc ... generate more actions than Gestalt.


PhaedrusXY

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 06:53:16 PM »
The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
Which is a bullshit design strategy. Feats as written are terrible. Pretty much all of them. If you want to see how feats ought to work, go look at Frank and K's Races of War.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 06:58:20 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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weenog

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 07:06:47 PM »
The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
Which is a bullshit design strategy. Feats as written are terrible. Pretty much all of them. If you want to see how feats ought to work, go look at Frank and K's Races of War.
Thanks for linking that, I was wondering where to find it.

Hmmm... world doesn't seem to be coming to an end, but these do look a hell of a lot better than what WotC gave us to work with, without having significant gamebreaking potential.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 07:16:55 PM »
They're OK, but a lot of them are vaguely worded or out of balance with each other.
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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 07:23:47 PM »
When I gun my enginefeats, I want people to think the world is coming to an end!

The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
I ask you what in the hell feat is worth 50-100% of your feats that has Dodge as a prerequisite.  2-4 feats before the game ends seems about normal when you're playing actual games instead of working theoretically.

It doesn't help that the Dodge tree's supposed "Ultimate Feat" is Spring Attack...



Feats should grant options, in addition to bonuses. Like this:
[spoiler]
Quote
[/spoiler]


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 07:39:17 PM »
Agreed.  Here's how I'd redo dodge

Dodge
Prereq: Dex 13
1/day, you can avoid a single melee attack as an immediate action.  Also, +1 to AC.

You gain an additional daily use of dodge for each feat you possess that has dodge as a prerequisite.
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Unbeliever

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 09:18:07 PM »
They're OK, but a lot of them are vaguely worded or out of balance with each other.
+1, I found the Frank & K's approach intriguing when I initially read it, but it's still too far from being usable for me and my group.  Also, I find the thing that they are supposedly balancing the feats against a little mysterious, or perhaps it's just a level, and really a breed, of optimization that I'm not used to.

Like TML's take on Dodge.  It's silly that the equivalent ability is an Epic level feat.  Also, you could go something Zephyr Dance for dodge, instead.

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2010, 09:39:42 PM »
Feats should have variable power levels.

So groups with different preferences can play the same game. It's good marketing. It also makes cross play between two groups with different power level preferences much easier.

Characters in the same party should have feats of similar power.
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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 10:18:13 PM »
I think several of Devotion feats are a good base line, like animal. Some as well are just bad like magic.
Most of them scale up with your level, and allow several different tricks.

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 11:33:55 PM »
The other thing about feats is that if you want to pursue a different direction, you have to start all over with a feat that a first level character would be expected to have while your wizard friend can learn Meteor Swarm despite never having learned an evocation spell.

lans

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »
When I gun my enginefeats, I want people to think the world is coming to an end!

The point of dodge is not the +1 to AC, the point of dodge is to be a prereq feat to make other feats that are supposedly good cost more than 1 feat to get.  The +1 AC is just a bonus to make you not feel totally cheated for the 3 levels you have to wait before getting the feat you actually want.
I ask you what in the hell feat is worth 50-100% of your feats that has Dodge as a prerequisite.  2-4 feats before the game ends seems about normal when you're playing actual games instead of working theoretically.

It doesn't help that the Dodge tree's supposed "Ultimate Feat" is Spring Attack...

I like to think Word Given Form is the Dodge tree capstone. If only it didn't require 12 ranks in truenaming.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: How powerful should a feat be?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2010, 12:01:23 AM »
The other thing about feats is that if you want to pursue a different direction, you have to start all over with a feat that a first level character would be expected to have while your wizard friend can learn Meteor Swarm despite never having learned an evocation spell.

I allow players to retrain for free every time they level up.  Gives players that aren't optimizers leeway to fix their mistakes.

I'm also starting to lean towards the "feat every level" idea, since so few feats are worth it.  Maybe make the "worth it" feats cost double.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.