Author Topic: Demilich weaknesses  (Read 22768 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Naldor

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 55
    • Email
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2010, 05:48:33 AM »
Quote from: weenog
Er, Naldor, your calculations neglect to take into account that D&D does not care about little things like inertia and pressure.
Uh, yeah it does.  I've always thought that the commoner railgun was a bit silly; the 'railgun' can exist only as a rules abstraction, but the c-fractional squirtgun would actually make sense if a character had one.  And 99.9999995% c gets really impressive when you start getting γ-values of 10,000...

Quote from: DMG
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
If we don't care about little things like inertia and pressure, what is next?  Gravity?  Without inertia, arrows could suddenly stop in flight because they bumped into a grain of dust.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 05:55:24 AM by Naldor »

Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2010, 05:50:58 AM »
As to the soul-gems / phylactery, the text on making a demi-lich says that the soul gems are incorporated to its major form, which I take to read as the phylactery.  So there's only one thing to find, and you have 24 hours in which to do so, which ought to be no problem for a half decent wizard.

I think they're separate entities.
Quote from: The Book, Creating Soul Gems, 177
Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches.  Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right.
...
Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich. For instance, a demilich skull might place the gems in the eye and tooth sockets of the skull, while a demilich hand might integrate the gems as faux joints.

So you still have that Lich Phylactery that isn't on the body, with all your gear, in some far off land.  Heck, you're epic level and evil, you probably have it in some impenetrable fortress in Limbo/Your Own Plane.  Some place that's impossible to get to by anyone else and you nearly die getting out of it.
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

weenog

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2010, 05:58:36 AM »
Quote from: DMG
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
Quote from: PHB
Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name).

These are both cute, well-meaning little statements.  Without hard rules to back them up, they're also meaningless fluff saying things that just aren't true.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2010, 06:01:49 AM »
Lotsa small stuff...long post is long because people keep replying:

If an AMF is a "magical effect", wouldn't a Demilich be immune to it (Magic Immunity is Ex... :banghead)? You'd need an oldschool dead magic zone.

Also, grappling doesn't work outside a dead magic zone, and you can't dispel freedom of movement because it'll just put it's RoFM with it's phylactery:
Quote

I'd say to let Shout and Greater Shout work on it as Shatter does(the rational of crystalline creature should be universal). Greater Shout can deafen it, which is one of the few debuffs that can affect undead that would actually matter to a demilich. Greater Shout can also affect objects, so it's not auto-immune.

Speaking of auto-immune to Fort saves...

a Demilich has a +10 Fort save ..... hit it with a Undead Dread(+7 bonus) Weapon ... forces a DC 27 Fort save or be Destroyed .... a couple of wacks ought to do it ... combined with a Mighty Disruption(+6 bonus) weapon forces another DC 21 Fort save or be destroyed ... note ... this happens with every hit

so a Fighter 30 with a +1 Mighty Disruption Undead Dread Weapon ... should do a nice job of it


 :D

Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Mighty Disruption does not state an exception to this immunity, making it by RAW the worst Epic weapon property there is (clearly an oversight, but this is CO and we live and die by oversights).

Dread however says "this even works on creatures immune to critical hits and death effects", making it a specific exception to the normal rule, so just use this.

(new posts while I was posting)
Next...DR is 15/epic and bludgeoning in the update. Squirtgun has potential, but demiliches have high touch AC (they get an insight bonus to AC = character level), so make sure a dedicated ranged attacker uses it.

As for LA, Lich only has a CR adjustment of +2, while the LA is +4. Demilich is CR+6, so LA should probably be higher. Also, the character needs to be character level 21 to even become a Demilich, so even with LA+6 it's only possible if you buy off a level of Lich.

(new posts while I wrote THAT)
The picture of the Demilich has the soul gems as it's eyes and teeth. "Major form" refers to it's demilich "body". Fluff says (yeah, I actually have the Epic Level Handbook. Primary Source FTW): "A demilich often appears as a single skull fitted with costly gems. ... The gems gleam wickedly with the light of stolen souls be slowly devoured."
That and the fact that the soul gems are what it uses for it's "Trap the Soul" ability is fairly conclusive.

(one more post while I wrote that)
Let's ignore the real world physics. This is a game with specific rule inherent to it. Let's use those rules to find the solution that no one can argue.

Edit: stopped the flow of posts because you're trying to figure out what part of mine you want to reply to.  :lmao
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 06:06:14 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2010, 06:39:33 AM »
If an AMF is a "magical effect", wouldn't a Demilich be immune to it (Magic Immunity is Ex... :banghead)? You'd need an oldschool dead magic zone.
DMZs can apparently be fixed with Wish.  Page 56, FRCS.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 01:58:22 PM by Gunhaven »
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2010, 07:10:32 AM »
Nice. (averaging out my two posts)
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Ramaloke

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
    • Email
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2010, 07:54:29 AM »
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
Favorite Songs
Passing Afternoon Like A Stone Wish You Where Here
~\-----------------/~

Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2010, 02:00:43 PM »
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
You can get that back by Thought Bottle and/or murdering small cities because you're bored, can't you?
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2010, 02:50:45 PM »
There is a table in the ELH that lists a 21st level wizard Demilish as ECL 33, on page 156.

Demilich LA is is 8, with the 4 from Lich making the total LA 12. Your Demilich friend would have to be something like, ECL 33. Lets not forget the lost EXP from becoming a demilich and the resources put into crafting soul gems.
You can get that back by Thought Bottle and/or murdering small cities because you're bored, can't you?

Murdering, yes. Thought bottling, that's tough. You need to lose a level to thought bottle, either by level drain or by being brought back to life. A lich can't be level drained and it wouldn't want to be brought back to life by the normal spells. Revive Undead works, but do you really trust someone to cast that on you? You'd have to start at ECL 26 (22+4) instead of 25, but in this case at least (with level 30 starting xp) that wouldn't stop you.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »
The existence of a preferred reference frame and instantaneous light speed are clear examples of DnD physics not including relativistic effects.  Or at least, relativistic effects not mattering, since you can't go at a speed of infinity anyway.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

carnivore

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2010, 04:58:45 PM »
quick clarification .... notice from the SRD:

Mighty Disruption: Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 21) or be destroyed. A weapon of mighty disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If this property is rolled for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)
Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, true resurrection; Market Price: +6 bonus.


the Text does require Undead to make a Fort save ... an exception to the norm of Undead traits:  "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." ..... a Mighty Disruption weapon is very effective vs Undead by its own description

 :D


Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2010, 05:18:08 PM »
Could the Demilich make his own plane with the following traits:
And put his Lich Phylactery in a castle or something on said plane.  Then you couldn't affect the thing unless you somehow repress it, which you would first have to repress the Dead Magic.  Make it have definite borders or something so that it can't be effected by spells from the outside and somehow make it so that the Dead Magic can't be Wished away (Maybe make the Plane living and therefore Static?) and then the only way in and out is through a Portal.  A portal that's guarded by the Plane and is at least 10 days away from the Phylactery no matter how fast one moves.

TLDR version: Put the Lich Phylactery on your own Static, Dead Magic, Living Plane.  Make the Plane only able to be accessed through a portal.  Put the portal 11 days away at the fastest speed possible for anyone.
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2010, 05:35:59 PM »
@Carnivore: Yeah, I was being super-nit-picky in a rules lawyery way. I'll retract my technicality as even if it might be true defies common sense (only kevin_video's DM would use it).

@Gunhaven: Static doesn't matter; if someone finds the phylactery to begin with, they'll take it out of the plane and destroy it. Dead magic would mean a couple things: the demilich couldn't scry it's own phylactery, and they're extremely paranoid by nature (like Voldemort and Sauron, they can't sense their object(s) of immortality's location or if it's about to be destroyed). The demilich would have to check on it in person and some deity might discover the portal if they're monitoring the demilich (which they should be) and finds he likes to visit X location.

Also: Demilich's only movement speed is supernatural flight. If for some reason it needs to reform, it'll have to roll it's head along the ground to the portal at 5 ft/full round action in order to get out. This is *extremely* humiliating and I can't see any demilich putting themselves in that position.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

fuinjutsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2010, 06:06:44 PM »
@Carnivore: Yeah, I was being super-nit-picky in a rules lawyery way. I'll retract my technicality as even if it might be true defies common sense (only kevin_video's DM would use it).

@Gunhaven: Static doesn't matter; if someone finds the phylactery to begin with, they'll take it out of the plane and destroy it. Dead magic would mean a couple things: the demilich couldn't scry it's own phylactery, and they're extremely paranoid by nature (like Voldemort and Sauron, they can't sense their object(s) of immortality's location or if it's about to be destroyed). The demilich would have to check on it in person and some deity might discover the portal if they're monitoring the demilich (which they should be) and finds he likes to visit X location.

Also: Demilich's only movement speed is supernatural flight. If for some reason it needs to reform, it'll have to roll it's head along the ground to the portal at 5 ft/full round action in order to get out. This is *extremely* humiliating and I can't see any demilich putting themselves in that position.
:lmao

Don't bring common sense into this.

THIS. IS. D&D.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2010, 06:10:16 PM »
I'm just trying to think of a way to protect the original Phylactery since I think that that's the only weakness it has left.  You could dunk him in holy water inside a Dead Magic Field (assuming you do it before he wishes it all away) to destroy the body.  Then you can teleport away to the Phylactery and destroy it within a day.  Dead Magic and a whole bunch of followers/traps?  Maybe some Tucker's Kobolds on every single level with Teleportation somehow blocked.  Dimensional Locks maybe?  Or something like the Cube (from the movie with the same name.  2nd movie would be funner) so that they can never be sure where they're going and will end up dying (if they're alive) trying to get to your precious Phylactery.

TLDR (I just like saying that now): This thing as a lair + these guys as followers + Lock Down on every cell = Protected Phylactery?
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2010, 06:12:30 PM »
There have been a couple "Hide My Phylactery" threads. My favorite location was at the bottom of the Eberron lake the Tarrasque lives in.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

weenog

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2010, 06:14:56 PM »
Does the phylactery even work in a dead magic plane?  I thought that (at least for a normal lich) the phylactery being a magic item meant its abilities were suppressed in an antimagic field, and a lich destroyed while his phylactery is inside an AMF would need to wait until the AMF went away or the phylactery was moved before it could reappear.

Presumably a dead magic plane causes a similar problem.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2010, 06:27:43 PM »
A hilarious phylactery would be a raptor arrow. Should you die, you wake up next to a Swift Hunter, say "Hiiii!" and proceed to devour his soul.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Gunhaven

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Something clever.
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2010, 06:46:05 PM »
I kinda like these suggestions.  Especially the roulette where you disguise it as a holy relic and give it to a bunch of paladins/clerics.  Too bad you have to keep the soul gems on you and they have to be gems or you could do the same thing and have 9 holy relics that you get to choose from.
My first handbook: Leadership and Army Making  Always a work in process.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Demilich weaknesses
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2010, 06:46:51 PM »
If only theres some way to transform them, I don't think Phylacteries trigger if the lich/demilich change into an inactive shape right?

EDIT: About hiding phylacteries, what if you use Polymorph Any Object to create an innocent child from the phylactery and pamper the kid(with tricks to avoid aging and stuff). Main trick, give the kid some bauble that looks amazingly like a phylactery to wear.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 06:49:46 PM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."