Author Topic: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon  (Read 11550 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2010, 12:29:01 AM »
IAC Master spellthief doesn't stack Caster levels, it stacks class levels. But, the argument it DOES stack CL is so old and popular, that it's practically fanon. Kinda like monkey grip + dual-wielding greatswords. (except Master Spellthief is nice even when it does exactly what it's supposed to.)

Caster level is an abstraction based on class levels, and as such, I really don't see where the argument lies.  If I'm a Red Wizard/Spellthief, and a DM argued my CL with Master Spellthief were still 20 after I jacked it up to 40 with circle magic, not only would he be wrong, he'd have an empty seat and a sore jaw for being a jackoff who couldn't add.  Stacking the levels is what allows the CL to grow to such heights, but it doesn't do it directly.

EDIT : Battle Jump is regional, meaning if I have my 2 ranks in the relevant local knowledge, I can snag it any time.  Also, the initial prereq's are fairly mutable.
they removed the local ranks to gain regionals in 3.5

Wasn't that in PGtF?  Which is 3.5?  And even so, refer to the second sentence.
Nope, was FRCS. PGtF removed it :(

And true, I was just saying the first part was wrong.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2010, 12:32:43 AM »
IAC Master spellthief doesn't stack Caster levels, it stacks class levels. But, the argument it DOES stack CL is so old and popular, that it's practically fanon. Kinda like monkey grip + dual-wielding greatswords. (except Master Spellthief is nice even when it does exactly what it's supposed to.)

Caster level is an abstraction based on class levels, and as such, I really don't see where the argument lies.  If I'm a Red Wizard/Spellthief, and a DM argued my CL with Master Spellthief were still 20 after I jacked it up to 40 with circle magic, not only would he be wrong, he'd have an empty seat and a sore jaw for being a jackoff who couldn't add.  Stacking the levels is what allows the CL to grow to such heights, but it doesn't do it directly.

EDIT : Battle Jump is regional, meaning if I have my 2 ranks in the relevant local knowledge, I can snag it any time.  Also, the initial prereq's are fairly mutable.
they removed the local ranks to gain regionals in 3.5

Wasn't that in PGtF?  Which is 3.5?  And even so, refer to the second sentence.
Nope, was FRCS. PGtF removed it :(

And true, I was just saying the first part was wrong.

Heh, FR fixing something, when they break so many more...go figure :P  I'm actually working on a red wizard atm to achieve the same thing with absolutely fucking god damn indisputable rule backing.  After the MONTHS spent in the "true arcane dilettante" thread with no one raising any objections, I think all of this here is simply the shock of a near constant (the TBoS being unkillable) being torn asunder, and the backlash of said change.
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Bauglir

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2010, 02:30:07 AM »
I'll be honest, I never read that thread. It came up during one of my Dwarf Fortress-induced lulls in posting, IIRC. Also this thread's title is way more interesting. TBH, I'd be willing to bet that there's enough CL boosts available if you cheese it out enough (you need a total +70, so as I see things working that means you need a base +14 to general CL, and if you've got that then this is only a discussion about the magnitude of your CL rather than your ability to kill TBoS). And with the number of actions you can rack up, you can probably still drop enough MDJs to reasonably stand a chance of breaking all those AMFs the TBoS has up. So I'm not exactly opposed to that, just what I see as an erroneous interpretation of Sublime Chord and a small piece of Master Spellthief. I'm going to do the CL math again, though, because I see the OP is different from what I quoted earlier.

Pre Sublime Chord
Bard CL 1
Spellthief CL 1
Wizard CL 14

Post Sublime Chord (Sublime Chord is based on class levels, NOT caster level; the arcane spellcasting class in which you have the most levels is Incantatrix, arguably, so we'll go with that)
Bard CL 11
Spellthief CL 11
Wizard CL 11
Sublime Chord CL 11

Post SCM (Increase Sublime Chord caster level, as normal, dragging everything else up)
Bard CL 14
Spellthief CL 14
Wizard CL 14
Sublime Chord CL 14

Via Master Spellthief, all classes use sum of these when casting

CL 56

Then, Items and Buffs, each of which grants +4 to final CL for each +1 it ordinarily grants, since it applies to each class separately. Discounting the Bead of Karma until somebody explains how we're getting it to work for our character that can't cast divine spells. It's +16 otherwise, though.

Ioun Stone (+4)
Ring of Arcane Might (+4)
Create Magical Tattoo (+4)

Don't think I've missed anything. So that leaves a final CL of 68, with an improvement to 84 if the Bead of Karma has a trick to allow it to function that I'm just missing. You may see significant improvement if you start Sublime Chord as soon as it's possible, beginning with level 11, since any +1 classes can add to that and that arguably drags up all other classes.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2010, 08:54:40 AM »
Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Master Specialist 4/Archmage 1

CL Boosters :
-Base 45 from Circle Magic and Red Wizard bonus to school (Abjuration)
-Ring of Arcane Might (+1)
-Create Magical Tattoo spell (+1)
-Orange Ioun Stone (+1)
-Elven Spell Lore (+2 to Mage's Disjunction, sub hellfire for energy spells)
-Spell Thematics (+1 to Mage's Disjunction, one spell/level)
-Adept Spirit (+1 insight)
-Spell Enhancer (+2)
-Robe of Arcane Might (+1 Abjuration)
-Inquisition Domain Power (+4 to dispel checks)
-Archmage (+1 Spell Power)
-Master Specialist (+2 to dispel checks)
-Bead of Karma (+4 for 10 minutes, UMD to activate)
-UMD a staff of Greater Consumptive Field on an anthill or in a chicken coop (get creative)

CL before GCF : 66
CL after GCF : 99

Automatically gets at least a 100, thus bringing down any buffs the TBoS has, followed by a quickened <something unpleasant> to finish.

Feats
1st-Tattoo Focus
Wiz-Scribe Scroll
Hum-Metamagic
3rd-Metamagic
Wiz5-Inquisition Domain Power
6th-Spell Focus (Abjuration)
9th-Spell Focus (Whatever)
Red5-Metamagic
12th-Spell Thematics
15th-Craft Contingent Spell
MS-Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
18th-Elven Spell Lore

And finally, XP for those Contingent Spells is a nonissue, since we have an army of Simulacrums and Liquid Pain to pay for whatever we want.  The gear choices use a very small portion of our WBL, meaning we have literally tons of gold to throw at initiative boosters, and since we're divining the ideal time to assault Mr. Sharstabber, we can blow a Moment of Prescience (possible from a scroll since they're cheap) to ensure we don't blow the cross class UMD check.  Last but not least, we cast it again at our retardedly high CL to add to initiative.

Finale
-Uses no Master Spellthief
-Most of material available at time of PGtF (I don't know the dates for sure though)
-Fulfills the one restriction of the challenge, which is no UA material
-No questionable rules anywhere
-Fucking owns the Twice Betrayer!
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Bauglir

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:39 AM »
Yeah, that'll pretty well do it. Way to go, sir! Also I forgot about UMD on the Bead, heh. I feel silly.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2010, 05:51:48 AM »
How can you UMD a Bead of Karma to work with arcane spells?

PS: Use heroics to gain Martial Study: Sudden Leap and Martial Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance and you're set!  (Use heroics to fulfill maneuver prereqs as prudent.)
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Bozwevial

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Re: Oozaru, the Twice-Betrayer Slayer Dragoon
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2010, 11:06:48 AM »
How can you UMD a Bead of Karma to work with arcane spells?
The bead just provides a blanket CL boost. The UMD is to fulfill the prerequisite of being able to cast divine spells.