Author Topic: Ninja/Swordsage build help  (Read 4955 times)

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Glacial

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Ninja/Swordsage build help
« on: October 02, 2010, 06:02:37 PM »
I have been considering trying to play a Ninja/Unarmed Swordsage to handle the skill monkey role.  There seems to be a ton of synergy between the two and I think it will be a blast to play without being too cheesy (ie I want it playable where the DM isn't getting angry).

Here is what I am thinking:

Human Ninja 4/Unarmed Swordsage 16 (levels taken in this order)
32 pt buy
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 8

Feats:
1. Able Learner, TWF
3. Weapon Finesse
5. Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand
6. Shadow Blade
9. Gloom Razor
12. Adaptive Style
15. ITWF
18. GTWF

Everything just seems to gel well mixing these two classes.  Things like:
- the "leap of the heavens" ninja class feature with tigerclaw maneuvers
- 2d6 sudden strike + 2d6 sneak attack (from assassin's stance) and the several tigerclaw, diamond mind, and shadow hand maneuvers that make monsters flatfooted.  Also several invisibility uses per day to take advantage of these extra dice.

The build also allows me to take care of traps, searching, and be the skill monkey.

Thoughts about how I could make this better without lathering it in nacho cheese?  Right now it seems to have tons of combos and options.

Thanks!
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Solo

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 06:05:24 PM »
Two levels of Ninja at most. Zero is preferable. Look at the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 06:09:03 PM by Solo »

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Bozwevial

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 06:21:55 PM »
Just take all Swordsage.
Yeah, much though I hate to step on the build, Ninja is pretty much strictly inferior to Swordsage.

X-Codes

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 06:27:21 PM »
Two levels of Ninja at most. Zero is preferable. Look at the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class.
What he said, and that's only to dip for Ghost Step, Trapfinding, and to get your class skills lined up with Able Learner.  Beyond that, there's really no point.

Stormcrow

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 06:31:32 PM »
well i have played ninja like sword sages and i have found that 3 warblade to 1 sword sage does work takeing shadow hand manuvers with the swordsage.

dna1

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 06:45:52 PM »
looks pretty decent.. although as previously stated the ninja is kind of lame :P

I might suggest going factotum/swordsage if your looking for a skill monkey.. factotum has some nice versatility, and makes for excellent skill monkeys  :D
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Saxony

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2010, 07:13:12 PM »
I would suggest taking 1 level of Rogue or Factotum (Dungeonscape) to give you trapfinding, and that's it.

Things to note:

Swordsage gives you Greater Invisibility already. A level 2 Shadow Hand boost maneuver called Cloak of Deception gives you Greater Invisibility until the end of your turn. Greater Invisibility doesn't go away if you attack. You can use this maneuver every battle, or even more often if you recover maneuvers. Dipping into Ninja will give you less Invisibility uses per day than just going Swordsage gives you and Sword sage gives you Greater Invisibility.

Swordsage already gives you an amped version of Ninja's Great Leap with a level 3 Tiger Claw stance called Leaping Dragon Stance. It makes you considered as always running for jumps, and gives you a 10 FOOT enhancement to your jump distances. This is important because many (or all?) of the high level Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers require you to jump as high as your foe's height. Without Leaping Dragon Stance, this is impossible or incredibly difficult, especially if your foe is Large size or bigger. Great Leap gives you a +4 bonus on jump checks. Meaning you get +4 feet with long jumps and +1/2 foot on high jumps. Great Leap is always and in every way inferior to Leaping Dragon Stance.

The loss of 2d6 Sudden Strike is not very significant, and Rogue provides the in all ways superior Sneak Attack if that is the only reason to take Ninja.

Basically, Swordsage is Ninja but better in all ways except it doesn't have trapfinding or poison use. Poison Use isn't all that great because the most cost effective poisons have a low save DC (Drow knockout poison, roach paste) and thusly are worthless at higher levels, and all the other good ones cost an incredible amount per dose (Black Lotus Extract, Wyvern Venom cost 1000's of gold). Acquiring it with a feat is much better than taking 3 levels of Ninja if you really want to focus on it with your character. If you want to focus on poisons, check out the Poison Handbook for all the information you could want: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

So if you want to be a skill monkey, take 1 level of Rogue or Factotum. Since you already like Able Learner, combine that with Factotum. They get "All skills" as class skills, no kidding. Say hello to Iaijutsu Focus (Oriential Adventures) and all the skill monkey skills possible!

Not being able to write "Ninja" on your character sheet does suck, but it's really for the best.

Also, if all you want is Shadow Hand maneuvers, might I suggest going Ruby Night Vindicator (Tome of Battle, prestige class) instead of going Swordsage? If all you want is Shadow Hand maneuvers, Ruby Night Vindicator is very superior to Swordsage. Using Cloistered Cleric 1/ Warblade 3/ Crusader 1 to meet prerequisites and then applying Ruby Night vindicator maneuver progression to Warblade maneuvers sounds pretty spicy (Cloistered Cleric is a Variant Character Class in Unearthed Arcana, page 50). Think of Ruby Night Vindicators as more battleready versions of Swordsages with cleric spellcasting added on top for flavoring. They get full Base Attack Bonus, d10 hitdice, access to Devoted Spirit+White Raven+Shadow Hand+Stone Dragon and can sneak around with full armor. They also get cleric spellcasting (Have I mentioned this enough times?).

Edit: Go Factotum 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Warblade 2/ Crusader 1 ... to enter Ruby Night Vindicator for skill monkey ability.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:05:24 PM by Saxony »
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vilenatas

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2010, 07:40:11 PM »

Edit: Go Factotum 1/ Cleric 1/ Warblade 2/ Crusader 1 ... to enter Ruby Night Vindicator for skill monkey ability.

Or maybe Factotum1/CloisteredCleric1/Crusader1/Swordsage2 for a more skill monkey aim pre RKV.

ImmortalSoul

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2010, 07:58:39 PM »
AFB, but doesn't Swordsage as written give you skillpoints times six on first level or something?

Saxony

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2010, 08:00:13 PM »

Edit: Go Factotum 1/ Cleric 1/ Warblade 2/ Crusader 1 ... to enter Ruby Night Vindicator for skill monkey ability.

Or maybe Factotum1/CloisteredCleric1/Crusader1/Swordsage2 for a more skill monkey aim pre RKV.

Definitely yes on Cloistered Cleric. Going to edit my post to reflect your input.

But without a level of Warblade, one must apply Ruby Night Vindicator maneuvers to Crusader's or Swordsage's recovery mechanics. They both suck. Warblade's recovery mechanic does not suck.

Factotum + Able Learner makes skill monkey possible with any class. The only issue is skill points. But we still need a functional maneuver recovery mechanic to carry us in fights when skills don't help. Ruby Night Vindicator gets a lot less maneuvers readied than Swordsage, so they cannot rely on a huge amount of readied maneuvers as a Swordsage does. Crusader recovery mechanic/ ready mechanic is just very messy in general and imprecise. Not good for a person relying on the specific nature Shadow Hand and White Raven. I suggest Warblade for choice in readying maneuvers and ability to recover all readied maneuvers by attacking or full attacking.
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Waazraath

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2010, 08:02:13 PM »
AFB, but doesn't Swordsage as written give you skillpoints times six on first level or something?

Yeah, it does... but did you ever find a DM that was to be convinced that it is really meant that way and not a stupid typing error?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2010, 08:09:13 PM »
AFB, but doesn't Swordsage as written give you skillpoints times six on first level or something?

Yeah, it does... but did you ever find a DM that was to be convinced that it is really meant that way and not a stupid typing error?
I'm convinced.

Otherwise the 4x skillpoints in every other class would be a complete waste of space.
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ImmortalSoul

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Re: Ninja/Swordsage build help
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2010, 08:22:30 PM »
Quote
Yeah, it does... but did you ever find a DM that was to be convinced that it is really meant that way and not a stupid typing error?

Interestingly enough, yes, just in my last campaign. Mostly because he didn't really care I guess, but it was nice for me so I decided to mention it :D