Author Topic: General Dread Necro advice  (Read 17395 times)

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RobbyPants

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General Dread Necro advice
« on: August 03, 2010, 09:59:42 PM »
I'm looking to run a Dread Necromancer in a solo game soon.  Because it's a solo game, and I don't have to stand up side to side by any PCs, I'm not looking for balls to the walls optimization.  That being said, if an option looks fun enough, I might consider a caster level loss.

General stipulations:
Figure starting at level 1, but possibly higher (probably not higher than 3rd level).  The guy needs to be playable from 1st level.

The game will likely cap at 10th to 15th level.

At this point I don't want to play an undead character due to campaign reasons, baring further clarification from the DM.  So, no necropolitan at this point.

Probably no Leadership/Undead Leadership.

Sources:
[spoiler]Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
PHB II
Complete Mage
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Champion
Complete Warrior
Spell Compendium
Book of Vile Darkness
Possibly part of Unearthed Arcana (flaws and traits almost for sure)[/spoiler]


Ideas so far:
I've read K's guide to necromancy so far.  I'm thinking of human as the race and figuring on Tomb Tainted Soul as a given.  I like the low-level melee possibilities of the class and may likely take Weapon Finesse at 3rd level (or 1st if I can talk the DM into changing the prereqs to Dex 13+).  I haven't put much thought into it beyond that, other than that I'd like to pick up some undead with Rebuking until 8th level, and then start Animating a respectable hoard.

I will PrC out after 8th level, but I'm not really set on any specific PrCs.  Divine Oracle looks promising (at least the first several levels), as do the first 4 levels of Fate Spinner.  The free Animating from Pale Master is enticing, but that flat out dead level is holding me back.

What are your suggestions on PrCs and feats?  This doesn't have to be a super powerful character, as I'm looking for fun and interesting as much as effectiveness.  As a solo character, I'd like to be able to handle a lot of things.


Thanks in advance! :D
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InnaBinder

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 10:16:20 PM »
I really like Corpsecrafter/Deadly Chill at first level; it gives you long-term versatility and combat viability, and the +1d6 damage per attack per corpse can stack up pretty quickly.  3rd level, Fell Drain maked a solid addition if you want to branch out.
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JaronK

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 10:54:02 PM »
Tomb Tainted Soul is obviously a good plan if you're not going Necropolitan.  Put that together with Black Sand (permanent by killing someone with it) and you've got 1d6 fast healing for you and your minions.  Imperious Command is also amazing, especially combined with Never Outnumbered.  I'm also a fan of Corpse Crafter and Sickening Grasp.

Your Ghostly Visage familiar is amazing when you get it.  Paralyzing enemies with fear, then killing them with a scythe (X4 critical, so perfect with Coup de Gras) is awesome, and you don't even need scythe proficiency.

And if you want to run your own party, spell stitching yourself (or your undead) so you get Spell Like Animate Undead, Animate Dread Warrior, and Awaken Undead can give you a nice little army.  ADW only works on humanoids, so you'll have to find a humanoid Rogue or something to be your trapsmith, and so on.

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RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 10:57:58 PM »
The only thing I hate about Corpse Crafter is that it doesn't stack with the 8th level ability.  Are the other abilities good enough to justify the wasted feat?  I'm iffy on Deadly Chill.  It's nice on multiple claw/bite attacks, but Cold Resistance 5 pretty much negates it.  Nimble Bones seems nice and I like the potential of Destruction Retribution (although I won't likely go out of my way to nuke my own guys).

Sadly, black sand and Imperious Command are out (I don't have Sandstorm or DotU available).

Where is spell stitching again?  Libris Mortis?
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zaulsiin

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 11:45:15 PM »
Where is spell stitching again?  Libris Mortis?

It's a template from Monster Manual II, pg 215. Requires that you be a corporeal undead, and needs a pretty high Wisdom to be worth it (at least 15 for animate dead, for instance).


Edit:
Some links that I feel obliged to share, for reference-
JaronK's "Advanced Learning" spell suggestions.
Dread Necromancer Handbook @ wizards.com forums.
K's Revised Necromancy Handbook, as you mentioned above.
My own recent thread asking similar questions (albeit on a slightly different trajectory). Some very useful general knowledge has been posted, both for Necromancy in general and the Dread Necro in particular.
Frank and K's Tome of Necromancy has some very useful general Necromancer info, as well as some awesome homebrew stuff.

Edit 2:
While I'm at it, does anyone know of a way to get Animate Dead material component-free, outside of using Spell-StitchingMM2 or prestige classes (like Pale MasterLM, Baron of the Grave, Corpselight Whisperer, et al)?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 12:01:55 AM by zaulsiin »

JaronK

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 11:54:19 PM »
The only thing I hate about Corpse Crafter is that it doesn't stack with the 8th level ability.

The hitpoints do.  Combine it with a Desecrated Evil Alter and your undead all get 1d12+6 HP/HD.  That's very significant in the long run, especially if you want to make a decent intelligent undead tank to work with you, or when making high HD undead for mounts and such.

Quote
  Are the other abilities good enough to justify the wasted feat?  I'm iffy on Deadly Chill.  It's nice on multiple claw/bite attacks, but Cold Resistance 5 pretty much negates it.  Nimble Bones seems nice and I like the potential of Destruction Retribution (although I won't likely go out of my way to nuke my own guys).

Not a huge fan of the others actually.  I mean, they're okay, but not huge.  I just like the HP.  But remember, they all work for stuff you animate with a spell, not spell like abilities, so Spell Stiched Spell likes won't get the benefit.  Your call here.

Quote
Where is spell stitching again?  Libris Mortis?

Yes, and you need Wis 19 to get the full benefit, but only at the time of application (so temporary boosts from items and such to get you there are fine... then you can animate a Cleric and give the item to them, as you no longer need it).  If you don't want to be undead, create your own loyal minion (Animate Dread Warrior is the best way) that's a Cleric already.  Any Wisdom over 19 costs you more though, so try to get them to exactly Wis 19.

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skydragonknight

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 12:01:43 AM »
Quote
  Are the other abilities good enough to justify the wasted feat?  I'm iffy on Deadly Chill.  It's nice on multiple claw/bite attacks, but Cold Resistance 5 pretty much negates it.  Nimble Bones seems nice and I like the potential of Destruction Retribution (although I won't likely go out of my way to nuke my own guys).

Not a huge fan of the others actually.  I mean, they're okay, but not huge.  I just like the HP.  But remember, they all work for stuff you animate with a spell, not spell like abilities, so Spell Stiched Spell likes won't get the benefit.  Your call here.

Never gotten a chance to play a necromancer myself, but the feat that makes undead explode dealing negative energy damage looks fun.
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snakeman830

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 12:02:27 AM »
Where is spell stitching again?  Libris Mortis?

It's a template from Monster Manual II, pg 215. Requires that you be a corporeal undead, and needs a pretty high Wisdom to be worth it (at least 15 for animate dead, for instance).
Also from Complete Arcane.

Corpse Crafter hp stack with the DN ability, so it isn't a complete waste.  There are also some pretty handy feats that require it.

Here's the thing: since you're soloing as a DN, you are ALL ABOUT the undead army.  That is your greatest strength, so you had better maximize it as much as you can.  This means Corpsecrafter, Deadwalker Rings (CM)(replace the Desecrate, since I doubt you'll be animating more than 3/day), and anything else that can boost those undead.  Durability is the biggest issue for undead, so those juicy hp bonuses are worth having.  At higher levels, I suggest the Necromancer ACF found here for another durability boost.  When you get access to Plague of Undead, use that exclusively to animate your minions (they get max hp then).

Sickening Grasp is a worthwhile feat as it increases the caster level for almost all of your spells benefit.

Complete Champion has a spell in it that lets you teleport between undead you control.  It explicitly is available to be picked up by Dread Necromancers with Advanced Learning, despite being Conjuration.  I can't remember the name of the spell, though.
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zaulsiin

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 12:06:35 AM »
Complete Champion has a spell in it that lets you teleport between undead you control.  It explicitly is available to be picked up by Dread Necromancers with Advanced Learning, despite being Conjuration.  I can't remember the name of the spell, though.

"Door of Decay", cleric 5th level spell. Complete Champion, pg 120.

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 12:53:35 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.
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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 01:49:08 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.

I've wondered about people using a PrC with a Dread Necromancer before just for that reason.  Is there something I'm missing?

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 02:04:13 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.

I've wondered about people using a PrC with a Dread Necromancer before just for that reason.  Is there something I'm missing?

Mostly that what you have at level 8 is so much that it's actually hard to get more.  Remember, a DN at level 8 with a Charisma of 22 can control 80HD worth of undead.  That's quite a lot.  With that said, I think the Advanced Learnings and improved Fear Aura is worth it as you approach the free Lich template.

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 02:13:39 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.

I've wondered about people using a PrC with a Dread Necromancer before just for that reason.  Is there something I'm missing?

Mostly that what you have at level 8 is so much that it's actually hard to get more.  Remember, a DN at level 8 with a Charisma of 22 can control 80HD worth of undead.  That's quite a lot.  With that said, I think the Advanced Learnings and improved Fear Aura is worth it as you approach the free Lich template.

JaronK
But that 80HD is only 2 Great Wyrm Red Dragon Zombies!  Or 4 10-headed hydras.  Or 80d6 with the Destructive Retribution feat from Libris Mortis, with it being 80d6 healing for you, and then you have to murder a small village and/or raid a graveyard to get the 80 1hd Human Warrior Skeletons you just blew up.
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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 03:20:05 AM »
Good stuff...

Put that together with Black Sand (permanent by killing someone with it) and you've got 1d6 fast healing for you and your minions. 
JaronK

... Moar good stuff

True. Nitpick: Black sand does 1d4 negative energy damage. Same deal, 1 less healing on average.
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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 03:21:58 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.

I've wondered about people using a PrC with a Dread Necromancer before just for that reason.  Is there something I'm missing?

Mostly that what you have at level 8 is so much that it's actually hard to get more.  Remember, a DN at level 8 with a Charisma of 22 can control 80HD worth of undead.  That's quite a lot.  With that said, I think the Advanced Learnings and improved Fear Aura is worth it as you approach the free Lich template.

JaronK
But that 80HD is only 2 Great Wyrm Red Dragon Zombies!  Or 4 10-headed hydras.  Or 80d6 with the Destructive Retribution feat from Libris Mortis, with it being 80d6 healing for you, and then you have to murder a small village and/or raid a graveyard to get the 80 1hd Human Warrior Skeletons you just blew up.

Hurray for the DN. Keep in mind when you have 80hd of stuff out your DM will most likely just bring in afew heavy hitters to pwn it down to size.
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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 03:38:44 AM »
Having your ghostly visage familiar take control of people via ego score can be hilarous.

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 03:46:39 AM »
Do remember that the Undead Mastery is CLASS levels, not CASTER levels.  Unless I understand that wrong (which wouldn't really surprise me) it'd be best to just stick with DN if you want a horde.

I've wondered about people using a PrC with a Dread Necromancer before just for that reason.  Is there something I'm missing?

Mostly that what you have at level 8 is so much that it's actually hard to get more.  Remember, a DN at level 8 with a Charisma of 22 can control 80HD worth of undead.  That's quite a lot.  With that said, I think the Advanced Learnings and improved Fear Aura is worth it as you approach the free Lich template.

JaronK
But that 80HD is only 2 Great Wyrm Red Dragon Zombies!  Or 4 10-headed hydras.  Or 80d6 with the Destructive Retribution feat from Libris Mortis, with it being 80d6 healing for you, and then you have to murder a small village and/or raid a graveyard to get the 80 1hd Human Warrior Skeletons you just blew up.
Bats have 1/4 HD each. And the feat says each creature deals a minimum 1d6 damage. So that's actually 320d6 of healing :D
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RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 10:26:35 AM »
Now I'm a bit torn on whether to PrC or not.  I guess the HD cap at 8th level isn't too bad.  If I wanted a lot of undead to guard some hidden areas, I suppose I could always do so via Lichloved, but that involves burning a feat on Evil Brand.  Then I can throw an arbitrary number of undead in an area to "guard" it.  Still, that's two feats.

Do Divine Oracle or Fate Spinner seem like okay dips?  I don't have any experience with either class.  The oracle seems kind of nice flavor wise, and it adds a little bit of survivability.  The Fate Spinner seems kind of nice for screwing people over with save-based spells.  Both are easy to enter.


Edit 2:
While I'm at it, does anyone know of a way to get Animate Dead material component-free, outside of using Spell-StitchingMM2 or prestige classes (like Pale MasterLM, Baron of the Grave, Corpselight Whisperer, et al)?
The Fell Animate metamagic feat from Libris Mortis is actually pretty good for that.  It's a +3 slot adjustment, but you just put it on a cantrip like Ray of Frost or Acid Splash to kill something you've already KOed.  Not bad for a 3rd level spell.  The only real downside is that it only makes zombies, and not skeletons.


Edit:
BTW, where is Sickening Grasp from, and what does it do?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:32:03 AM by RobbyPants »
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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 11:04:43 AM »
One of my favorite 3.5 characters was a Dread Necro 5/Crusader1/JPM2  (started @ 1st level) with Tomb Tainted Soul. I made him for a pvp one shot and won my tournament bracket before he bit the dust because the audience swarmed me afterwards lol. Fun Times.
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zaulsiin

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 11:32:33 AM »
Edit 2:
While I'm at it, does anyone know of a way to get Animate Dead material component-free, outside of using Spell-StitchingMM2 or prestige classes (like Pale MasterLM, Baron of the Grave, Corpselight Whisperer, et al)?
The Fell Animate metamagic feat from Libris Mortis is actually pretty good for that.  It's a +3 slot adjustment, but you just put it on a cantrip like Ray of Frost or Acid Splash to kill something you've already KOed.  Not bad for a 3rd level spell.  The only real downside is that it only makes zombies, and not skeletons.
Aye, I suppose, but it doesn't seem like the most efficient use of a feat and/or spell slots.

Edit:
BTW, where is Sickening Grasp from, and what does it do?
Sickening Grasp is a reserve feat from Complete Mage. As long as you have a Necromancy spell of a certain level or higher (3rd lvl, I think it is?) in reserve, then you can use a touch attack to sicken a living target. It also gives you a permanent +1 competence bonus to effective caster level for Necromancy spells.